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Duckhams is back

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Yes, fully agree about the most advanced additive packages and API ratings. API SJ is as recent as we should be going with 'classic' engines.

 

Duckhams Q was API SF for its final few years as a conventional, mainstream oil (and funnily enough by that time it wasn't green either!). They later relaunched it (as green) with fancy 'heritage' label and still API SF but a much higher price. To my mind API SF is the minimum we should be aiming for.

 

It's all personal opinion I guess. Whilst I have researched the whole topic fairly exhaustively I don't think my interpretations are any more valid than anyone else's but PERSONALLY I wouldn't give the Halfords/Comma/Wilkinsons stuff (which is all exactly the same) house room when you can get something better for the same, or in some cases, less money. And if people insist on the Halfords stuff they should get it from Wilkinsons as it's usually at least a fiver cheaper (and the can is nicer)! The other one which I see is starting to appear in independent accessory shops is Shell Classic 20W/50...usually seems to be about 20 quid and is API SF. They don't specify the Zinc level but claim suitable anti-wear additives for classic engines (nice can too!).

 

The quality of the base oil is important but far more so is the overall additive package (which is why I say aim for API SF, SG, SH or SJ). I suspect the Zinc issue might not be so critical although for my peace of mind I'd rather it was 1000 ppm +.

Having been alerted by Michell's book I'm not so happy with API as they dont embrace valve train tests. Any new oil formutation to meet API SF to SJ wont have been tested on valve trains, including flat tappets. I get the impression ACEA is more thorough there.

But he also says the desirable Zn or P level is whether the engine is deemed "highly stressed" , which is not a lot of help .

 

I'd also rather Zn was above 1000ppm but the labeling is now so confusing that I do think we need to resolve the issue, at least for the hard-charging, high revving TRers !!. As I pointed out "1000ppm ZDDP" is a LOT less ZDDP than quantifying it as "1000ppm Zinc as ZDDP"

 

Peter

Edited by Peter Cobbold

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But he also says the desirable Zn or P level is whether the engine is deemed "highly stressed" , which is not a lot of help .

 

 

It's difficult. You could have a highly stressed component(s) in an engine that might not be deemed highly stressed in a general sense. I thought that's what all the fuss was about; flat tappets riding the cam lobes requiring additional protection.

 

It reminds me of the venerable old VAG Pumpe Deuse diesel engine. That was a stonking engine good for 300,000 miles if looked after but ate its engine oil up at the injector nozzle (or somewhere linked to the pump jet concept), hence you had to buy special 'PD' oil with the correct additive. Not an engine that would ordinarily be regarded as 'highly stressed' but there was a highly stressed part within.

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It's difficult. You could have a highly stressed component(s) in an engine that might not be deemed highly stressed in a general sense. I thought that's what all the fuss was about; flat tappets riding the cam lobes requiring additional protection.

 

It reminds me of the venerable old VAG Pumpe Deuse diesel engine. That was a stonking engine good for 300,000 miles if looked after but ate its engine oil up at the injector nozzle (or somewhere linked to the pump jet concept), hence you had to buy special 'PD' oil with the correct additive. Not an engine that would ordinarily be regarded as 'highly stressed' but there was a highly stressed part within.

The worst oil-related issue I've come across is the Honda CRV rear diff. They changed the 'dual pump fluid' oil formulation and it needs changing every two years.

Ours siezed and is now 2WD...

 

 

Yes, flat tappets and cam lobes, one of the areas first to be uprated, and more rpm...

..when some oils might be going in the opposite direction

 

Peter.

Edited by Peter Cobbold

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"I'd also rather Zn was above 1000ppm but the labeling is now so confusing that I do think we need to resolve the issue, at least for the hard-charging, high revving TRers !!. As I pointed out "1000ppm ZDDP" is a LOT less ZDDP than quantifying it as "1000ppm Zinc as ZDDP"

 

 

So do I, the line of least resistance is to use an oil which specifies the oil correctly for additives and is the right price - guess Classic Oils ticks all the boxes, they print the correct amounts of additives in the correct manner on their container and you don't even have to ask them for it.

There's been enough freshly rebuilt TR engines machine their camshafts and cam followers within very low mileages to encourage me to at least try to do the correct thing. We appear to have a reasonable number of owners using other products and why not ? it suits their pocket and appears to be giving them the results which can't be argued with, we can all be a control group and log our successes or otherwise to help eventually to come to a consensus.

 

Mick Richards

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Guest ntc

Mick

Cost has nothing to do with it,and I am sure you will know mineral oil is no good in a full race spec engine

Edited by ntc

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I can't help but recall all the panic-stricken discussions that arose from the gradual withdrawal of leaded fuel . . . . . how our classic engines, or at least their cylinder heads, were going to be scrap in no time flat . . . . . unless we changed to unleaded valve seats and/or started pouring in whatever alternative additives at a rate of knots.

 

Time doesn't seem to have proved the doomsayers correct, at least not in the time frames originally being suggested, and I can think of plenty of assorted classics that have covered very substantial mileages since then . . . . . without, as yet, sustaining any major ill effects.

 

I don't doubt that ZDDP is a desirable additive, but I can't help thinking that we might just be working ourselves into a bit of an unnecessary lather . . . . and it will be interesting to see how things progress in the longer term.

 

As for mineral oils and their being 'no good in a full race spec engine' . . . . . I can't help but think that more than a few competing vintagents would disagree with that suggestion, older engines are not so tolerant of modern synthetics as classic engines of more modern vintage. I can think of more than a few prewar racers that have experimented with modern oils and regretted it, and after all there is still a place for Castrol R let alone mineral formulations. Horses for courses . . . . .

 

Agreed a classic engine of the 60s or 70s built to run on modern synthetic lubricants should probably attain heights that traditional mineral oils would not permit, but let's not over-generalise here !

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

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I've already spent too long on this. Maybe there's more info in later editions of Michell's book.

 

As Alec says wait and see. No manufacturer is going to sell an oil that destroys tappets or lobes in a routinely tuned and driven classic engine.Or we'd have seen problems a-plenty already. Perhaps its solely the racers and track day enthusiasts with trick cams, who might be affected. They need to know that " ZDDP ppm " is very different from "ppm Zinc as ZDDP".

 

Now we can get back to the new Duckham's.... is it green or yellow ?

 

Peter

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Now we can get back to the new Duckham's.... is it green or yellow ?

 

 

 

Green I believe :D

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Back in the 1970s when I worked as a production engineer at a foundry in Manchester the local

Duckhams depot was next door, the guys in the lab. mixed up any oil you required (GTX,BP VISCO-STATIC, MOBILOIL SUPER, SHELL ETC.) in any colour you fancied.

 

 

Harvey S .Maitland.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I can't help but recall all the panic-stricken discussions that arose from the gradual withdrawal of leaded fuel . . . . . how our classic engines, or at least their cylinder heads, were going to be scrap in no time flat . . . . . unless we changed to unleaded valve seats and/or started pouring in whatever alternative additives at a rate of knots.

 

Time doesn't seem to have proved the doomsayers correct, at least not in the time frames originally being suggested, and I can think of plenty of assorted classics that have covered very substantial mileages since then . . . . . without, as yet, sustaining any major ill effects.

 

I don't doubt that ZDDP is a desirable additive, but I can't help thinking that we might just be working ourselves into a bit of an unnecessary lather . . . . and it will be interesting to see how things progress in the longer term.

 

As for mineral oils and their being 'no good in a full race spec engine' . . . . . I can't help but think that more than a few competing vintagents would disagree with that suggestion, older engines are not so tolerant of modern synthetics as classic engines of more modern vintage. I can think of more than a few prewar racers that have experimented with modern oils and regretted it, and after all there is still a place for Castrol R let alone mineral formulations. Horses for courses . . . . .

 

Agreed a classic engine of the 60s or 70s built to run on modern synthetic lubricants should probably attain heights that traditional mineral oils would not permit, but let's not over-generalise here !

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

Hi Alec!

 

I have to agree with you with what you have said above! Regarding cam shafts: unfortunately many fellow TRers went down the route of regrinds on camshafts which is not going to give long service as the regrinding takes away the hardness layer and these camshafts were not reheat treated. This is why they failed and there is no oil that would stop that. Moss do not offer this type anymore but have gone to new chilled cast iron blanks only, I wonder why?

 

Bruce.

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Hi Alec!

 

I have to agree with you with what you have said above! Regarding cam shafts: unfortunately many fellow TRers went down the route of regrinds on camshafts which is not going to give long service as the regrinding takes away the hardness layer and these camshafts were not reheat treated. This is why they failed and there is no oil that would stop that. Moss do not offer this type anymore but have gone to new chilled cast iron blanks only, I wonder why?

 

Bruce.

 

Hi Bruce

 

In a similar vein... Leonard Renkenberger's ancient 6-TECH document on 74tr6.com concludes with the advice not to pull the choke out immediately on a cold car, but to let the engine do a few turns on the starter and get the oil circulating before ignition.

 

Much to be said for that.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

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Surely the most important thing is that whatever20w50 is chosen to change it regularly and of course the old adage about not using too many revs until the engine has warmed up ?

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Gavin,

Zinc or Phosphorus ppm is the number we need from them. My guess is Elf will tell you it is 1250 ppm. And the "1250ppm ZDDP" is shorthand for what they mean to say. Sales-speak.

Will be interesting to hear what they say.

Peter

 

Peter,

Followed your advice re questions to the Elf tech's and have had a miriad of responses, all of them as clear as mud! The last question was "can I please have the elemental (I guess that's the right word?) zinc and phosphorus contents in ppm?" That was quite a few days ago and I've had no response up to this point so I'll have to assumme that they're not happy to clarify futher and hence I will no longer be using that product.

 

HOWEVER, I have found another which appears to tick all the boxes (subject to your appraisal), and is very reasonably priced at NZ$69 retail (approx 35 quid) for 5L. Sounds too good to be true though based on pricing for similar products quoted on this thread :unsure:

 

SHELSLEY LIGHT 20W-60 (Mineral).pdf.pdf

 

Your thoughts??

Edited by KiwiTR6

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It's API SC grade, the Brown Bible says an API grade SE oil is required. I also use a Penrite product - HPR 30, 20W-60 Full Zinc . Its zinc content is 1200ppm , slightly less than the 1400ppm in the Shelsley Light. The Penrite HPR range is readily available from retail suppliers in Australia, often amongst the bargain oil specials.

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It's API SC grade, the Brown Bible says an API grade SE oil is required. I also use a Penrite product - HPR 30, 20W-60 Full Zinc . Its zinc content is 1200ppm , slightly less than the 1400ppm in the Shelsley Light. The Penrite HPR range is readily available from retail suppliers in Australia, often amongst the bargain oil specials.

 

Mike

 

Crikey, you're right, and what's even better is its on special at Supercheap for NZ$39 (20 quid) for 5L at the moment!!

 

HPR 30 20W-60 (Mineral).pdf.pdf

 

Peter, is this what we need?

Edited by KiwiTR6

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Mike

 

Crikey, you're right, and what's even better is its on special at Supercheap for NZ$39 (20 quid) for 5L at the moment!!

 

attachicon.gifHPR 30 20W-60 (Mineral).pdf.pdf

 

Peter, is this what we need?

I'd be happy with the Zn and P of either. And with either in my 6. I'm not up to speed on APIs and ACEAs etc but the applications described cover TRs I'd have thought.

Peter

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Peter,

Followed your advice re questions to the Elf tech's and have had a miriad of responses, all of them as clear as mud! The last question was "can I please have the elemental (I guess that's the right word?) zinc and phosphorus contents in ppm?" That was quite a few days ago and I've had no response up to this point so I'll have to assumme that they're not happy to clarify futher and hence I will no longer be using that product.

 

HOWEVER, I have found another which appears to tick all the boxes (subject to your appraisal), and is very reasonably priced at NZ$69 retail (approx 35 quid) for 5L. Sounds too good to be true though based on pricing for similar products quoted on this thread :unsure:

 

attachicon.gifSHELSLEY LIGHT 20W-60 (Mineral).pdf.pdf

 

Your thoughts??

Gavin, Yes, that's the correct question: " What are the elemental Zn and P concentrations ". Their radio silence says it all, for me. They know what thay are doing, and so, now, do we !!

Peter

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Gavin, Yes, that's the correct question: " What are the elemental Zn and P concentrations ". Their radio silence says it all, for me. They know what thay are doing, and so, now, do we !!

Peter

 

Another two days on Peter and still no word. I'm afraid you're correct...

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Another two days on Peter and still no word. I'm afraid you're correct...

Gavin, Hmmm..........Le Weekend in Elf France maybe ? Peter

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Received the Penrite HPR30 today and the label states "FULL ZINC (approx. 1600+ ppm levels)"

 

Sounds good to me :):)

 

post-14246-0-72935300-1511386343_thumb.jpg

 

 

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Looks like its the Penrith Classic Light over here in the U.K.

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Looks like its the Penrith Classic Light over here in the U.K.

 

Yep - the TRR shop sells it for £27.

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I see that Duckhams is now being offered online . . . .

 

https://www.duckhams.com/

 

At £30/gallon (£36 delivered) not exactly a budget product . . . . and I could buy 10lts of Silkolube, for example, for the same money.

 

Surely to goodness there is nothing unduly complex or costly about blending a straightforward copy of an oil formulation of decades ago ?

 

But hey, if they can make a healthy profit on a twentieth century reputation, good luck to them.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

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Hi Alec,

what you don;t understand is that it is 'RETRO' oil. so it must be good. B)

 

Along with the mystique :ph34r: of not knowing what is in it - it is a sure fire winner. :)

 

Roger

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