Superaquarama Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 (edited) Having almost finished the chassis I'll soon be starting on the engine. Decided to retain the original type rear seal due to i) mixed reports of the upgrades and ii) never having any probs with leaks on 3 different TRs back in the day. Not sure what to expect until I get there but, whilst a mandrel is presumably desirable for fitting the seal, is it essential and shall I get a mate to make one on his lathe, or is it possible to do it by eye / feel ? Advice gratefully received ! Thanks, Anthony Edited December 15, 2012 by Superaquarama Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 Hi Anthony, Well if you've never had a problem with the original scroll oil seal why even consider using anything else ? Also I've never seen a bad report of the revised lip seals, and if you use the Chris Marxs seal you can fit it and use the original scroll seal also - belt and braces. The scroll oil seals mostly weep when the engine has been stopped, (the rotation of the scroll satisfying the capture of the crank oil in use). It builds up on the rear of the engine and sump and eventually weeps out in that area giving the characteristic TR "marking of territory" with a few drops when you've stopped. I have fitted the original scroll "by fit and by eye" when I was young and foolish, but given that the scroll is in alloy any misfit allows the crank to machine the scroll which then certainly does encourage a more heroic leak from that area. It's cheap enough and advisable to make a mandrel up which then allows for a more uniform fitment. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR 2100 Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 When I rebuilt my TR4 engine, many years ago (not TR 2100) the alternative seals were not available. I assembled it ever so carefully, but without a mandrel. It leaks. Profusely. AlanR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ashley James Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) Moss do a Mandrel and the workshop manual describes fitting it without one. Edited December 16, 2012 by Ashley James Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Superaquarama Posted December 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2012 (edited) I fondly imagined I'd replied to this a few days ago but it never got posted !Thanks for the replies, everyone. But Ashley, where in the Moss catalogue do you find a mandrel, 'cos I can't find one? Nor can I find anything in the workshop manual about fitting the seal without - page 1-117 seems to be it as far as I can see, but maybe you have a newer or older version. Thanks, Anthony P S Just realised my manual's for the TR4, so maybe they missed it out of that ! Edited December 18, 2012 by Superaquarama Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fireman049 Posted December 18, 2012 Report Share Posted December 18, 2012 (edited) I'm in the process of rebuilding my spare 3A engine. I'm leaving the scroll seal well alone as I never had any trouble with it. As a matter of interest, when I partially rebuilt the original engine I never used a mandrel and it never leaked! I will be fitting Mad Max's oil seal conversion ~ two seals are better than one! Tom Edited December 18, 2012 by Fireman049 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ashley James Posted December 19, 2012 Report Share Posted December 19, 2012 (edited) I fondly imagined I'd replied to this a few days ago but it never got posted ! Thanks for the replies, everyone. But Ashley, where in the Moss catalogue do you find a mandrel, 'cos I can't find one? Nor can I find anything in the workshop manual about fitting the seal without - page 1-117 seems to be it as far as I can see, but maybe you have a newer or older version. Thanks, Anthony P S Just realised my manual's for the TR4, so maybe they missed it out of that ! My manual is for a TR3 and I bought a mandrel from the Moss catalogue a month or so ago. http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=20511 Edited December 19, 2012 by Ashley James Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Superaquarama Posted December 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2012 Many thanks, Ashley ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kiwifrog Posted December 20, 2012 Report Share Posted December 20, 2012 The dimensions are given on page 1-117 of the TR4-4a workshop manual under engine reconditioning rear oil seal assembly instructions. If you have access to a lathe and a lump of Ali or polyethene then it is not hard to make the tool but maybe not to the accuracy of the moss item. Mad marx has a kit with the tool, his new seal and the modified seal housing for sale as well http://www.tr4-racing.de/eng/madmarx-racing.html Cheers Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Superaquarama Posted December 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 Thanks, Kiwifrog, I'd seen the dimensions so will get my mate to knock one out on his lathe. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kiwifrog Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) I believe one of the dimensions of the centering tool in the manual may have an error according to madmarx instructions for his lip seal the larger diamater should be 71.57 mm. That is what I turned my mandrel to and it seems a very nice snug fit. I am fitting Mad Marx (christians) rear oil seal as well so modified the rear oil seal to suit on the lathe. I have to say I was a bit nervous at first but it seems to be a very nice fit and should help keep the car continent. For 45 euros for the seal if you can do the machining yourself, 20 Minutes on a lathe and 10 minutes with a drill press/dremmel for the seal and a bit longer on the lathe to turn up the centering piece from a Ali bar, its a cheap solution. Mad Marx instructions here http://www.tr4-racing.de/download/splitseal.pdf Cheers Alan Edited December 22, 2012 by Kiwifrog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR24178 Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 (edited) I used to own a Standard Utility, an army pick up from WWII, it had the same rear seal, never had a workshop manual, after a crank regrind, I just centred it with a feeler gauge and it was perfect, don't think it revved very high, so probably did not need to be as efficient!! Edit!! and as I now realise a mandrel is essential for a Tr, as my memory failed me, it is not the same. what a plonker Rodney!! Edited December 23, 2012 by TR24178 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MadMarx Posted December 27, 2012 Report Share Posted December 27, 2012 (edited) I had meanwhile seen about 70 or 80 stock scroll seals. Few of them were perfect reusable, many of then were worn out. How could this be as the gap between crank and seal is 0,1mm in each direction? The answer is, no centering tool was used! You try to find a good position by hand and maybe create an offset which in conjunction with crank flexing and bearing clearance grind off an amount from the scroll housing. In many cases this seems to lead to a leak. If your scroll housings shows a polished like thread surface than it might be worn. If there are turning marks from the manufacturing process your seal is great for reuse. So I would recommend always to use a centering tool with the exact diameter of 71,57mm instead of the wrongly 71,66mm shown in the workshop manual. Cheers Chris Edited December 27, 2012 by MadMarx Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Superaquarama Posted January 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 (edited) Belated thanks for the very useful information, Chris, and for your further replies Alan and Rodney. I have the new scroll seal and note the correct dimensions of the mandrel, so I will get my friend to make one up on his lathe. I expect that even if you buy a new one it would still be to the dimensions in the manual. Edited January 11, 2013 by Superaquarama Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MadMarx Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 I have many mandrels made to the correct dimensions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Superaquarama Posted January 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Oh, ich kenne deine Dornen richtig sein ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Graham Baggaley Posted April 27, 2021 Report Share Posted April 27, 2021 just looking through this topic...as i'm about to start the engine rebuild and i was procrastinating over whether to try and get hold of a mandrel for my 3a rebuild. Is this something that someone has and is wiling to lend me for a weekend (London). Seems a good thing to borrow if anyone is willing? Thanks Graham Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted April 27, 2021 Report Share Posted April 27, 2021 I'm pretty sure someone near London will lend you one. Watch this space Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted April 27, 2021 Report Share Posted April 27, 2021 TR shop was renting them at one point. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted April 27, 2021 Report Share Posted April 27, 2021 3 hours ago, Graham Baggaley said: just looking through this topic...as i'm about to start the engine rebuild and i was procrastinating over whether to try and get hold of a mandrel for my 3a rebuild. Is this something that someone has and is wiling to lend me for a weekend (London). Seems a good thing to borrow if anyone is willing? Thanks Graham Hi Graham, I have one you may borrow. I'm in Hayes W.London. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted April 27, 2021 Report Share Posted April 27, 2021 Told you ! Bob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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