VeeEight Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Hi All, Be gentle with me as this is my first post. I am thinking of buying a TR5 that has triple Webers fitted. What do you think as compared to the PI standard system for performance and fuel economy. Or any other reasons, for or against. Phil Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Manmail Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 Hi Phil, welcome to the forum. I will send you an email. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted November 24, 2009 Report Share Posted November 24, 2009 I'm saying nothing Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 Blimey Neil . . . . . can we have that in writing, and signed in blood ? Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 Hi All, Be gentle with me as this is my first post. I am thinking of buying a TR5 that has triple Webers fitted. What do you think as compared to the PI standard system for performance and fuel economy. Or any other reasons, for or against. Phil ok so if Neil wont bite I will I would not pull off a working PI system to fit Webers If it was originally a PI car converted to Webers my long term goal would be to return it to PI If it was originally a TR250 upgraded and converted from Strombergs to Webers I would keep the Webers. The Webers are great carbs on the right engine (CR and cam etc) and once dialled in will perform as well as the PI system and with greater reliability over the long haul (very few moving parts compared to the PI, very few failure modes compared to the PI). Fuel consumption will be comparable to the PI or maybe better, depends a lot on your driving style.. If the Webers are working fine I would not be in a hurry to switch back to PI but I would do it eventually. The Webers hold their value well and will fund most of the retrofit. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 I am thinking of buying a TR5 that has triple Webers fitted. What do you think as compared to the PI standard system for performance and fuel economy. From the extensive postings I've read on the Forum, which you can find in the TR6 forum and elsewhere, I'd say they could match the PI system, and as Stan says there is less to go wrong. However, it depends if they're the right size and well set up to suit your particular engine. Forum members who were Weber virgins have successfully fitted them, but the cost and the time required to go from 'working' to 'working properly' can be a severe test of your wallet your skill and your patience. Ivor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 The choice of Webers or Lucas P.I. has been thoroughly debated on this forum as noted above . What has not been disputed has been expressed this round, to which I'll add another trifle: the Webers are self-compensating for altitude in the main. Appearance makes the decision easier for some: http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp84/ima68tr/CD8315L9-6-8017.jpg In any case, if the TR5 in question is otherwise satisfactory the only thing to do is buy it! A P.I. system can be had fairly easily in the U.K. if desired and expertise is readily available there. Seems Weber specialists abound too, so Ivor's advice, while quite applicable for the DIY types, can be waived insofar as the time and patience factors are concerned ( but a couple of hours+ on a rolling road may set you back a few hundred quid ). I'm always interested to hear from those who've had both systems working properly in their experience Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 Blimey Neil . . . . . can we have that in writing, and signed in blood ? Cheers, Alec I will try Alec honest Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red 6 Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 They look nice and thats what counts Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 (edited) They look nice and thats what counts And they will drink the new EN15 not so the PI's for long Edited December 8, 2009 by ntc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red 6 Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 And they will drink the new EN15 not so the PI's for long Ah! a technicality, whats EN15, it looks like part of a local postcode but I bet its not, is this petrol related? (goes off to google) ah ethanol. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 Ah! a technicality, whats EN15, it looks like part of a local postcode but I bet its not, is this petrol related? (goes off to google) ah ethanol. Correct look into it we will have it very soon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peejay4A Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 Google's not much help Neil, do you have a link to some info on EN 15? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 (edited) Google's not much help Neil, do you have a link to some info on EN 15? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ethanol_fuel_mixtures In most European counties now and here soon the N is often omitted Edited December 20, 2009 by ntc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobinTR6 Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 Been to the site and it does say 'not possible to use with engines not designed for it', what does that mean to the CP engine and PI system Neil, you seem to be in the know ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 Pm sent Robin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytr5 Posted December 26, 2009 Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 Why can we not have this out in the open.Are our injection systems going to work with this fuel or not?. Regards Harry TR5 Nutter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted December 26, 2009 Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 Why can we not have this out in the open.Are our injection systems going to work with this fuel or not?. Regards Harry TR5 Nutter Hi Harry Because it would end up in an argument or legals. You could ask professionals or those in the industry or those involved with mechanical PI and the sale of.You will certainly need a good compression ratio ie min 9/1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytr5 Posted December 26, 2009 Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 (edited) Thanks Neil, I am now looking at things in a different light.Anyone have a set of webbers they can sell me complete with one piece manifold? Or back to my original thought on EFI.Will be having a look at Ian,s set up very soon to determine wether I go down that line. Harry TR5 Nutter Edited December 27, 2009 by harrytr5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nick Jones Posted December 26, 2009 Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 (edited) Why the fuss about E15? Pretty unlikely to become the only fuel available anytime soon. If you ever fill up with Tescos 99 octane you have already tried 5% ethanol.... anyone use that? Any problems? Possible problems running E15? Might give the appearance of running lean as ethanol needs richer fuel air max - PI is normally fairly generous on fuelling though. You will use more fuel for same reason. Ethanol absorbs water so fuel system corrosion might be more of an issue on cars that don't see much use Ethanol is unkind to certain rubbers so seals and O-rings could suffer over time. My guess is that cars that have already had unleaded conversions will be ok. Some say that ethanol may dissolve ancient gum deposits.... you may need to change filters once or twice early on. For your entertainment, I accidently filled my efi Vitesse from a virtually empty tank with E85 about 3 years back. It really didn't like it but it did run and managed to drag itself 2 miles back to my office, then restart from cold (very reluctantly) that evening and drag itself 10 miles home. I could have tweaked the fueling up a bit but as I had a longish run next day (to the TR Malvern meet co-incidently) so I opted to drain the tank and refill. I didn't have enough storage to drain the lot so it probably ended up with around E15 - E20 afterwards. It ran just fine and does not seem to have taken any harm from the incident. My Honda lawnmower has been drinking the evidence of this foolish mistake for the last 3 years - just finished it at the end of this summer. That ran on it without any adjustment whatever and appears not to have been damaged in the process - apart from needing a couple of starter rope replacements - it was extremely hard to start from cold! Best answer on the carbs vs injection? IMO, use the PI throttle bodies and convert to electronic injection. Performance will equal or better carbs or PI but with considerably better economy. There is already a lengthy thread on this subject on the TR6 specific list. Worth a read. Cheers Nick Edit; If set on carbs, see if can get Dellorto DHLAs rather than Webbers. Similar performance but capable of much superior fuel economy. Edited December 26, 2009 by Nick Jones Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Hi Neil, "argument or legals" might be a bit melodramatic ? Historically, carburettor and injection systems alike have been engineered to run on petrol as a norm, particularly with reference to normally aspirated engines. Ethanol, methanol and 'nitro' (in one form or another) having been introduced into the blend primarily for the benefit of forced induction engines. Ethanol and methanol alike are both prone to give rise to two major problem areas - erosion of specific metallic compounds and degradation of seals. Nothing new there, facts of life since the early days of motoring. Plus, of course, the air/fuel mix will need to be amended compared to petrol. None of these are insoluble problems, and I'd suggest that it's erroneous to imply that Weber carburettors necessarily have an advantage over other carbs or injection systems. Deterioration of, for example, fuel lines or filters or fuel gauge sender units will occur regardless of the carb or injection system in use . . . . After all, dragsters have run for decades utilising forced induction engines running on highly aggressive fuel mixtures . . . old technology. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Hi Neil, "argument or legals" might be a bit melodramatic ? Historically, carburettor and injection systems alike have been engineered to run on petrol as a norm, particularly with reference to normally aspirated engines. Ethanol, methanol and 'nitro' (in one form or another) having been introduced into the blend primarily for the benefit of forced induction engines. Ethanol and methanol alike are both prone to give rise to two major problem areas - erosion of specific metallic compounds and degradation of seals. Nothing new there, facts of life since the early days of motoring. Plus, of course, the air/fuel mix will need to be amended compared to petrol. None of these are insoluble problems, and I'd suggest that it's erroneous to imply that Weber carburettors necessarily have an advantage over other carbs or injection systems. Deterioration of, for example, fuel lines or filters or fuel gauge sender units will occur regardless of the carb or injection system in use . . . . After all, dragsters have run for decades utilising forced induction engines running on highly aggressive fuel mixtures . . . old technology. Cheers, Alec Hi Alec Do you ever sleep? I did not say or imply that webers was the only carb.And as you say forced induction,perhaps you could have a word with some of your contacts to get there opinian? this stuff is coming like it or not and it will get worse, I can see the same as before half arse addictive's that do not work.To alter the fuel/air ratio with carbs is a dam sight easier than a mechanical Pi system and from what I have seen and been shown the lower/mid EFI software can be very iffy to allow for different fuel grades.The big players in the market have been swinging away from the std system for quite some time have they not? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Hi Neil, I'm not convinced that the ethanol mix will prove to be as big a potential problem as we might fear - just as the change to unleaded wasn't as dramatic as the doom'n'gloom merchants predicted. After all, Cleveland Discol was once a popular high-octane fuel, utilising 5-10% ethanol depending on the blend and market. That didn't generate any great consumer problem, as far as I'm aware. Petrol/ethanol blends have been in use for high performance engines since WW1, in military aviation and motor sport contexts - it's only since the 1960s that industrial alcohol fell out of favour as a fuel for internal combustion engines, and that was more to do with political factors than environmental or scientific. Ethanol is a useful solvent (so is methanol), and there are bound to be some resultant problem areas with plastic and rubber compounds in fuel systems, but doubtless that can easily enough be sorted ? Mixture may well need enrichening, but at 5-10% ethanol constituent of petrol fuel, that should be within the existing adjustment range of carburettor or injection systems. Ethanol can and does absorb water, and has a longterm tendency to settle out of solution with petrol, which could well be a problem with cars laid up for the winter - we might find benefit in draining the tanks and fuel systems to avoid separated ethanol degrading plastic or rubber compounds, or absorbed water content corroding metallic components. As for EFI - I've inadvertently filled a '91 216 Rover (Honda engine) and a '96 820 Vitesse Sport with ethanol-blend fuel on the Continent. Both ran poorly for 2 or 3 miles, then appeared to run quite satisfactorily once the system had accommodated itself to the changed fuel. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Badfrog Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) Hi all, EN15 is not a future thing. This mix of economy 85 octane fuel with 15 % ethanol is already the unique kind of ordinary fuel available in France in many places. This trend should extend to Europe pretty soon (and yes this includes UK, nya, nya....) Even the "blue pumps" (former "leaded" premium with potassium salts instead of lead) are now history. "85E15" as we have it here is guaranteed OK for all low range cars made after Jan 2000, or Porsches which always ran on "economy". Older cars request inquiry with the manufacturer. 85E15 should not be confused with E85 which is 85% alcohol and 15% petrol. The brazilians use it massively and they even use E100 (pure alcohol). Both are quite corrosive. It's the latest blunder of Eco-psychos after the famous 5% benzene "unleaded". This was a most carcinogenic compound and fuel companies had to solve the cancer problem by firing gas station permanent attendants and going "self-service", thus dividing the risk between individual drivers. Now for carbs, Webers are italian carbs for short course, fast cam, DOHC italian cars. An engine is to be considered as a unit. Every component has been thought as part of the whole. If you want to replace the Webers but are afraid of PI hassles (or if the car is a TR250), consider a pair/triplet of Mikuni carbs versus a pair of SU HS8 or triple SU HIF-44. Several online dealers sell the Mikuni contraptions. These appear as superbly made carbs with a nifty hybrid technology. They mix the depression/needle system of the SU with a "weber-like" but hignly simplified jetting and accelerator pump design. I for one would be happy to hear from people who went for the Mikunis. Badfrog Edited December 30, 2009 by Badfrog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR 2100 Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) Hi all, EN15 is not a future thing. This mix of economy 85 octane fuel with 15 % ethanol is already the unique kind of ordinary fuel available in France in many places. This trend should extend to Europe pretty soon (and yes this includes UK, nya, nya....) Even the "blue pumps" (former "leaded" premium with potassium salts instead of lead) are now history. "85E15" as we have it here is guaranteed OK for all low range cars made after Jan 2000, or Porsches which always ran on "economy". Older cars request inquiry with the manufacturer. 85E15 should not be confused with E85 which is 85% alcohol and 15% petrol. The brazilians use it massively and they even use E100 (pure alcohol). Both are quite corrosive. It's the latest blunder of Eco-psychos after the famous 5% benzene "unleaded". This was a most carcinogenic compound and fuel companies had to solve the cancer problem by firing gas station permanent attendants and going "self-service", thus dividing the risk between individual drivers. Now for carbs, Webers are italian carbs for short course, fast cam, DOHC italian cars. An engine is to be considered as a unit. Every component has been thought as part of the whole. If you want to replace the Webers but are afraid of PI hassles (or if the car is a TR250), consider a pair/triplet of Mikuni carbs versus a pair of SU HS8 or triple SU HIF-44. Several online dealers sell the Mikuni contraptions. These appear as superbly made carbs with a nifty hybrid technology. They mix the depression/needle system of the SU with a "weber-like" but hignly simplified jetting and accelerator pump design. I for one would be happy to hear from people who went for the Mikunis. Badfrog Great post Badfrog. Interesting and thought provo . . pro . . Oh well - cheers anyway. The topic should really be covered (even more) fully in TR Action. AlanR Edited December 30, 2009 by TR 2100 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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