Andrew Smith Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Hello fellow sidescreeners TRK has 10” drums and from time to time I get, what sounds like, brake shoe clatter (I’m guessing it’s the shoes clattering around against the drum?) and this has been going on for years and years but is now getting on my nerves – yes, I know that I have a very tolerant nature! Anyway, on inspection (a few years ago) I noticed there are no Hold Down Pegs, Spring & Washers fitted nor are there any holes on the back plate to fit them. I have heard of other early sidescreen cars (TRK is a 58 - TS30411) not having these fitted and so do others with this set-up get the ‘clatter’? If so, how have you overcome this, if at all – my solution is to drill the back plate and fit the Hold Down Pegs etc and I'm guessing I simply wind in the brake adjuster to centralise, drill the holes and ‘hey presto’ job done and hopefully the clatter stops?! Any advice welcomed – except fitting a rear disc conversion at X thousands! Cheers Andrew Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Andrew have you got the felt bushes fitted to the ends of the steady posts as this helps, Also are the steady posts adjusted correctly. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vivdownunder Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Hi Andrew, I've got 10" rear drums too and had the same problem last year. I suspect the shoes were clattering against the backing plates. Anyhow I did exactly what Stuart has prescribed and the noise 95% disappeared. You need 4 of the little white felt washers - one for each shoe steadying post. Regards, Viv. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Andrew - I don't have any felt or any retaining pins for the rear brake shoes and I never had either. I know mine are all the original ones (10" diameter) that came with my TR3A back in 1958 - except for new linings bonded to the original shoes in 1990 with 80,000 miles on the original set. I've driven over 100,000 miles on this new set and never had any brake clatter. Maybe you should talk to an expert brake repair specialist, discuss this with him and ask him for his input. He may suggest you take him the linings on the shoes plus your 10" drums so he can check that the radius on the linings bonded to the shoes have the correct diameter to properly conform to the ID of your drums. If they have been slightly off (oval instead of round) in the drums, this might explain the clatter. Most brake shops have the bending equipment to re-shape the shoes so they will be correct for the inside diameter of your drums. If he doesn't suggest this, relate the details above to him and ask him what he thinks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Hi Andrew, had something similar on my 4A. It wasn't the shoes in my case (retaining clips in place) but the pair of retraction springs. These were vibrating against the back plate. I used some RTV sealant (Wickes) to gently attach them to the backplate. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew Smith Posted July 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 Hi Folks Thanks for your responses. It seems, like Don's 3A, TRK also does not have any or any retaining pins or felt fitted to the rear brake shoes (maybe was a ST economy drive?) - the difference being that TRK clatters, but I think it's only on the driver's side as Baldrick couldn't hear any clatter on the passenger's side on the way to the local pub on Sunday - mind you that's no comfort, as he's as deaf as a post when he's in TRK! Anyway, just taken a few snaps of my brake set-up below and it appears that the shoes only bite on the outer edge, given the inner edge is covered in brake dust? So, maybe drill the back plate and fit some hold down pegs (probably easier than fitting the steady posts and felt washers – if you can get them?) at the weekend and also look at the other suggestions above to see if I can get them to sit square (so to speak) as there is plenty of shoe left. If none of that works then I'll change the shoes and see if that does the trick, being the last and expensive option - before it could get really expensive! Cheers Andrew Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 Hi Andrew The last pic show's no movement with the cylinder on the back plate is this right? Regards Neil Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew Smith Posted July 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 Hi Andrew The last pic show's no movement with the cylinder on the back plate is this right?Regards Neil Hi Neil, Sorry, I'm probably being a bit dim but I'm not sure what you're referring to? But what I have noticed, having just come in from the garage, is that the top left edge of the upper brake shoe in the first and second photo has been rubbing on the inside of the brake drum - so maybe this is the problem. I think I may just take a grinder to it! Cheers Andrew Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 Hi Neil, Sorry, I'm probably being a bit dim but I'm not sure what you're referring to? But what I have noticed, having just come in from the garage, is that the top left edge of the upper brake shoe in the first and second photo has been rubbing on the inside of the brake drum - so maybe this is the problem. I think I may just take a grinder to it! Cheers Andrew Hi Andrew I do not know a lot about the 3 but the cylinder is single piston so it should move in the slot does it? Regards Neil Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted July 9, 2009 Report Share Posted July 9, 2009 Andrew - I have the answer for you. Look at the photo below of the 10" assembly on the LHS of my 1958 TR3A. Compare this to your third photo. Your assemblies are all up-side down ! I sent my photos to Menno so he could do his correctly and his do not chatter. Don't grind anything. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nick Webster Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 (edited) Can't help but notice that your brake pipes (which in one photo look like they might be copper) seem to be suspended in mid air for a lot of their run. Does the left hand one really go from the diff to the back plate without going anywhere near the axle tube? If so you can look forward to a fractured pipe sometime in the future. Menno posted some really good pictures on the 5th June under the topic "Brake Lines" Nick Edited July 10, 2009 by Nick Webster Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TIMS Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Andrew Notwithstanding Don's fundamental comments. The leading edges of the linings are very right angle. To stop similar noises on Mini's in the dim and distant past I have chamfered the leading edge to a smooth arc so that the angled edge does not try to "dig" into the drum and bounce along (if that makes sense). NB have also done that with disc pads recently on the MX5 to stop similar chatter. (mainly from Kathryn mumbling about the noise!) Regards Tim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianC Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 ...in the dim and distant past I have chamfered the leading edge to a smooth arc so that the angled edge does not try to "dig" into the drum and bounce along This used to be standard practice when fitting relined shoes on most cars. Even the standard factory replacement shoes like the Girling ones that I'm currently selling here had squared edges which benefitted from a couple of minutes fettling with a file to prevent noise and snatch during the first few miles. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Andrew - I have the answer for you. Look at the photo below of the 10" assembly on the LHS of my 1958 TR3A. Compare this to your third photo. Your assemblies are all up-side down ! I sent my photos to Menno so he could do his correctly and his do not chatter. Don't grind anything. Don you are absolutely correct as that was my first thought when seeing the pictures. Andrew you need to remove the back plates and move them round and then re-route the pipes accordingly and then you might get a better handbrake The cylinders need freeing up and copperslipping(or similar ) so they slide in the back plates. You will probably need to free of the cable adjusters and then take the slack out of the cables as well. Have a look at the drums as well as they may need a light skim to ensure the internal surface is square and then the linings may also need replacing if they have worn off one sided. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Hi Folks Thanks for your responses. It seems, like Don's 3A, TRK also does not have any or any retaining pins or felt fitted to the rear brake shoes (maybe was a ST economy drive?) - the difference being that TRK clatters, but I think it's only on the driver's side as Baldrick couldn't hear any clatter on the passenger's side on the way to the local pub on Sunday - mind you that's no comfort, as he's as deaf as a post when he's in TRK! Anyway, just taken a few snaps of my brake set-up below and it appears that the shoes only bite on the outer edge, given the inner edge is covered in brake dust? So, maybe drill the back plate and fit some hold down pegs (probably easier than fitting the steady posts and felt washers – if you can get them?) at the weekend and also look at the other suggestions above to see if I can get them to sit square (so to speak) as there is plenty of shoe left. If none of that works then I'll change the shoes and see if that does the trick, being the last and expensive option - before it could get really expensive! Cheers Andrew Hi Andrew, Those are clearly non standard rear leaf springs - what type are they and how do they perform compared to the originals? Rgds Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vivdownunder Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Hi Andrew, With the backing plates that way around the shoes become trailing instead of leading edge, so they would most likely be getting thrown around, and are probably clattering on the backing plate, if the shoes don't have midway support pedestals. The spring loaded retaining clips and through pins are seen more on later 9" rear brakes. Many manuals show the rear brake assembly incorrectly mounted, so it can happen when the dismantler doesn't keep track of how it came apart, then follows a manual to re-assemble. Obviously work has been done when those copper brake lines were fitted. Incidently these are illegal in some countries as being soft, they crush easily. The handbrake will work better too, when the backing plates are rotated. Apart from chamfering the inside sharp edge of the lining, it looks a bit like the drums might have become "bell mouthed", and could do with a skim. Check out the surfaces closely as 10" drums develop small radial cracks if worked hard, which eventually become rather large radial cracks. Steel wheel cars are more prone, as there's less brake cooling. Oh, and while you've got the overalls on you might consider fitting a new front seal. Then you won't need that glass at the front of the car to catch the occasional oil drip. Best, Viv. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew Smith Posted July 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Hi Folks Many thanks for all the tips and advice and to Don spotting the problem - I've had the drums off so many times in recent years and never noticed that..............and I used to be an OC Recce as well, so 3/10 for observation!! The brake system was 'overhauled' in 1988 and as Viv says probably put together using the ST Service Manual by the last owner which also show them fitted incorrectly! Oh, and Viv.....occasional drip?! Stuart My handbrake is up to MOT standards............... Ian The springs are Revington fast road and they are excellent! So guess what I'll be doing this weekend................. Cheers Andrew Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted July 10, 2009 Report Share Posted July 10, 2009 Andrew - You may find that you might have to remove both backplates and swop them from one siide to the other for correct re-assembly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted July 11, 2009 Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 Andrew - You may find that you might have to remove both backplates and swop them from one siide to the other for correct re-assembly. I had a 250 in a while ago with a similar problem. Car had been into a "so called" classic garage near to me with poor handbrake problem (typical) and they had insisted that the back plates were on the wrong sides so they swopped them over and returned it to the owner insisting that "They were all like that" Result no handbrake to speak of and great rear brakes in reverse! Stuart. PS Andrew I know the handbrake was up to MOT standard but when I tried it it didnt have the usual sidescreen/TR4 ability to skid the back wheels with the handbrake! Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew Smith Posted July 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2009 PS Andrew I know the handbrake was up to MOT standard but when I tried it it didnt have the usual sidescreen/TR4 ability to skid the back wheels with the handbrake! Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I know I should know the answer but I don't - what is leading shoe and what is trailing shoe (pertaining to brake shoes) and why is trailing shoe not good to have? Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I know I should know the answer but I don't - what is leading shoe and what is trailing shoe (pertaining to brake shoes) and why is trailing shoe not good to have? Roger Hi Roger Think of the rotation under braking Regards Neil Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Colin Fairhurst Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 (edited) All this talk about leading and trailing edges is getting me confused. I thought that the rear brakes with only one hydraulic cylinder had one leading shoe and one trailing shoe and the trailing shoe came into effect as a reaction to the leading shoe bighting into the drum. I can't see how rotating the back plate can change this principle although in Andrews case they obviously need sorting out. The front drum brakes on my TR2 have got two wheel cylinders in each and therefore have two leading shoes in each which makes them very effective. Regards, Colin. Edited July 15, 2009 by Colin Fairhurst Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Hi Roger, Leading shoe, the friction surface leads ahead of the shoe pivot point - it is forced against the drum by drum rotation. In contrast, a trailing shoe's friction surface trails behind the shoe pivot - it is pushed away from the drum by drum rotation. Leading is more efficient, more braking force, but inherently less smooth. Trailing is much smoother, but less efficient and requires more pressure. Front drums are typically twin leading shoe, sometimes leading/trailing; rears are typically leading/trailing, which gives a bit more bite in reverse. Then there's the oddball like my Humber Super Snipe S1, huge twin trailing shoes all round, damn great servo and still needs a hefty push on the pedal. Mind you, in reverse it becomes twin leading all round, and possibly the best braked car ever . . . . backwards ! And if that's not enough, it's an automatic you can push start . . . . providing you can push it to 25mph that is ! Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Colin Fairhurst Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Hi Roger, Leading shoe, the friction surface leads ahead of the shoe pivot point - it is forced against the drum by drum rotation. In contrast, a trailing shoe's friction surface trails behind the shoe pivot - it is pushed away from the drum by drum rotation. Leading is more efficient, more braking force, but inherently less smooth. Trailing is much smoother, but less efficient and requires more pressure. Front drums are typically twin leading shoe, sometimes leading/trailing; rears are typically leading/trailing, which gives a bit more bite in reverse. That is exactly what I am trying to say Alec but is everybody missing missing the piont? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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