TR3 BETA Grills

[Dave Larnder]

Hi Everybody

 

Has anyone got any more information on the TR3 BETA grill? - NOT THE TR3B grill which is the same as the TR3A.

In Bill Piggott's book "TRIUMPH BY NAME TRIUMPH BY NATURE" on page 23 is a superb frontal picture of a TR3 BETA, and this grill looks ideal for us chaps in hot climates to increase the air flow.

(Bill P. this includes you too please, if you are reading this enquiry!)

What I am looking for are dimensions and fixing arrangements, and if it can be modified to accept the parking/direction lights as these could not be fitted on the standard TR3A wings, the BETA wings being more bulbous to suit the wider track of the BETA.

I do not expect to be able to buy one of these grills, but maybe I can fabricate one up from drawings.

 

Thanks

 

Dave

[sforster]

Dave,

I can't help with the dimensions of the Beta grill.

 

But if it is just more air flow you want, have you considered modifying the existing grill by cutting out every other horizontal bar? Perhaps you could tape them black first to see what the result might look like. I know the spacings are smaller on copy grills than on original ones.

 

To be honest, air flow shouldn't be a problem if everything is set up corectly, ie air duct for radiator. Though a kenlowe fan is always a good backup plan.

 

Simon.

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Dave,

 

I suspect that only one of the Beta grilles survives - and if that's the case, I can't imagine that even seeing it, letting alone copying it, would be an available option.

 

The grille aperture is I think the same as a 3A, the extra width being in the wings rather than the tub.

 

In terms of airflow, I doubt there's much difference - the Beta grille having half the number of verticals and horizontals, but of larger dimension . . . and the apertures are large enough to let in sizeable stones, so you'd have to put mesh behind which would further reduce airflow.

 

It's 30-odd years since I've looked at a Beta grille, but as far as I recall fixing was similar to the 3A grille.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[vivdownunder]

Hi Dave,

 

If you want a quick and effective way of increasing TR3A front air flow, yet leave the car fairly original looking, you can squash the bars of a standard grille together, like the factory did with the TR3S Le Mans cars.

 

On the other hand, I've seen a Beta type grille made up with polished aluminium rods. These were attached to two vertical matte black painted brackets via short self tappers through the brackets into the back of the rods. The brackets bolted to the tray at the bottom, and went up behind the apron at the top, so I don't know what upper fixing was used.

 

I seem to recall the indicators were fixed to one rod, probably with two horizontal self tappers. Also, conflict has to be avoided with the over rider stays.

 

For a good job, you then have to consider welding up and repainting at least the 4 x original grill mounting holes along the bottom of the apron.

 

Regards,

 

Viv

[BrianC]

Dave,

 

Whilst this could be an interesting development project and perhaps a potential sales opportunity, apart from creating a talking point at meetings and shows, I think it would be a solution to a problem which doesn't (or shouldn't) exist.

 

If your engine is properly cleaned and de-scaled when rebuilt and you ensure the radiator is in top-notch condition (preferably without the starting handle hole), then the car shouldn't overheat (unless you are intending to take it on safari or spend a lot of time in city centres).

 

For additional insurance, fit a front-mounted blower fan and replace the original 4-blade metal fan with a 6-bladed lightweight, plastic fan. If you are replacing the radiator, then you could consider an aluminium one.

[Dave Larnder]

Dave,

 

Whilst this could be an interesting development project and perhaps a potential sales opportunity, apart from creating a talking point at meetings and shows, I think it would be a solution to a problem which doesn't (or shouldn't) exist.

 

If your engine is properly cleaned and de-scaled when rebuilt and you ensure the radiator is in top-notch condition (preferably without the starting handle hole), then the car shouldn't overheat (unless you are intending to take it on safari or spend a lot of time in city centres).

 

For additional insurance, fit a front-mounted blower fan and replace the original 4-blade metal fan with a 6-bladed lightweight, plastic fan. If you are replacing the radiator, then you could consider an aluminium one.

[hoyt]

Hi Everybody

 

Has anyone got any more information on the TR3 BETA grill? -

 

I don't have my source handy, but I recall that the TR3 Beta grill is similar to the TR10 grill.

[Don Elliott]

Dave - I might suggest an experiment before you start cutting the grille on your new TR3A or spending time and money trying to obtain or reproduce a BETA grille.

 

Run you TR3A as is for a month ad note if and when it overheats. Maybe it won't. But if it does, then do the second half of this free experiment. Remove the front bumper and the grille and repeat the test for a month. If you get a reduction of the overheat issues, then you can consider the approaches suggested above.

 

I suspect that you won't see any difference and you should stay with the normal grille and turn on your Kenlowe fan when you stop in traffic and the temperature gauge starts to rise.

[peterc]

Hi Dave,

I have a 3A and another suggestion to help keep your cool is to use 'Water Wetter', available from Moss. In your part of the world the engine will run hotter than in UK. I was expecting problems but have not had any.

Cheers

Peter C

[Don Elliott]

Dave - Here in Canada where we get freezing weather in the winter (it's not gone above minus 3 C since Dec. 1st), I have always used a 50/50 mix of antifreeze with DI water in all my cars. However, since I only drive my TR3A in the summer, I have changed to a mix of about 20% antifreeze and 80% water. I had heard that water has better heat transfer properties than the 50/50 mix. But I don't want any rust developing in the block, so I keep the 20% mix.

 

I also heard that Water Wetter only helps if your coolant is 100% water.

 

I cannot substantiate either of these claims.

[jean]

Dave, have a look at the Main Forum under auxilary lights and you will notice what I've done to improve cooling when driving. The lower part of the front apron covers almost 1/3 of the radiator and so I cut an opening in the apron. Same as LM cars and most later TRs

[Herald948]

 

I don't have my source handy, but I recall that the TR3 Beta grill is similar to the TR10 grill.

More or less. It appears to be almost identical to the grille from the very late Standard 10 Companion or the Standard Pennant. See this photo from the Standard Motor Club of a Pennant.

[Paul Hogan]

Hi Dave,

 

Like Alec, I last saw and handled a beta grill some 25 yrs ago at Pete Cox's shop. I believe its now on the late Geoff Palmers car. I don't know if his son Paul still has it but i will try and find out for you. Dimension wise, its the same size as the stock tr3a item. The 3a apron is the same as the beta one.

 

As far as increasing airflow you shouldn't have a problem with the standard set up. If you do want to improve cooling then by all means remove the fan from the engine but fit the electric fan on the REAR of the radiator, not the front as has been suggested. You want to suck air through the rad and not block the radiator path with the body of the fan itself. An alloy rad is the next step but its an expensive mod if your own rad is ok.

 

regards

 

hogie

 

Hi Everybody

 

Has anyone got any more information on the TR3 BETA grill? - NOT THE TR3B grill which is the same as the TR3A.

In Bill Piggott's book "TRIUMPH BY NAME TRIUMPH BY NATURE" on page 23 is a superb frontal picture of a TR3 BETA, and this grill looks ideal for us chaps in hot climates to increase the air flow.

(Bill P. this includes you too please, if you are reading this enquiry!)

What I am looking for are dimensions and fixing arrangements, and if it can be modified to accept the parking/direction lights as these could not be fitted on the standard TR3A wings, the BETA wings being more bulbous to suit the wider track of the BETA.

I do not expect to be able to buy one of these grills, but maybe I can fabricate one up from drawings.

 

Thanks

 

Dave

[peterc]

Dave here is the PR blurb on Water Wetter.

 

 

 

WaterWetter is a unique wetting agent for cooling systems which reduces coolant temperatures by as much as 30ºF. This liquid product can be used to provide rust and corrosion protection in plain water for racing engines, which provides much better heat transfer properties than glycol-based antifreeze. Or it can be added to new or used antifreeze to improve the heat transfer of ethylene and propylene glycol systems. Designed for modern aluminum, cast iron, copper, brass and bronze systems. Compatible with all antifreezes, including the latest long-life variations.

As you see it cn be used with antifreeze.

Cheers

Peter C

[TR 2100]

Has anyone got any more information on the TR3 BETA grill? - NOT THE TR3B grill

which is the same as the TR3A.

In Bill Piggott's book "TRIUMPH BY NAME TRIUMPH BY NATURE" on page 23 is a superb

frontal picture of a TR3 BETA, and this grill looks ideal for us chaps in hot climates to

increase the air flow.

(Bill P. this includes you too please, if you are reading this enquiry!)

What I am looking for are dimensions and fixing arrangements, and if it can be modified

to accept the parking/direction lights as these could not be fitted on the standard TR3A

wings, the BETA wings being more bulbous to suit the wider track of the BETA.

 

Hi Dave,

 

I doubt if factory drawings exist for this. For prototypes, the factory would

typically make something up based on an existing production part but

would not produce drawings unless there was some possibility of production.

The rally TR4 wing vents are a perfect example.

 

What I do have is an original factory B&W negative of the Beta, front end

first, that would give an even better idea than the photo in the Pigg's book.

If you are serious about copying this grille and would like a 'full frontal'(and

give me a few days) I should be able to scan the negative to a pdf file, say

300% actual size, and email it to you.

PM me with your email address if you are interested.

 

AlanR

[Dave Larnder]

Hi Dave,

 

I doubt if factory drawings exist for this. For prototypes, the factory would

typically make something up based on an existing production part but

would not produce drawings unless there was some possibility of production.

The rally TR4 wing vents are a perfect example.

 

What I do have is an original factory B&W negative of the Beta, front end

first, that would give an even better idea than the photo in the Pigg's book.

If you are serious about copying this grille and would like a 'full frontal'(and

give me a few days) I should be able to scan the negative to a pdf file, say

300% actual size, and email it to you.

PM me with your email address if you are interested.

 

AlanR

Hi Alan

 

Would appreciate that photo, Please e mail it to me on :

davelarnder@hotmail.com

I didn't think this question would have resulted in all these replies, for which I thank you all. I just thought that as I am not a purist. a grill like that would give some individuality to my car, as I Like the look of it, nothing really to do with heating problems.

 

Dave

Thanks

[Mike Hazlewood]

Hi Alan

 

Would appreciate that photo, Please e mail it to me on :

davelarnder@hotmail.com

I didn't think this question would have resulted in all these replies, for which I thank you all. I just thought that as I am not a purist. a grill like that would give some individuality to my car, as I Like the look of it, nothing really to do with heating problems.

 

Dave

Thanks

 

 

Hi Dave,

 

Just to pick up on something Hogie said, It is correct that Paul Palmer still owns the Factory Beta, however Paul now lives in the States but I beleive the car is still in storage just a few miles from were I live as I have in the past borrowed some of the panels ( wings ) to have fibreglass moulds made.

I should have a phone number somewhere and if not ,can probably contact his sister to get intouch with him for you.

 

Regards, Mike.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regards, Mike.

[jbenajes]

Is the grill something similar to that one offered in ebay USA?:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Triumph-Tr3...%3A1|240%3A1318

 

If the link does not work, you can search for item number 130289152534 in www.ebay.com. T eitem will be visible until about next Monday midnight.

 

Jesus

[Dave Larnder]

Is the grill something similar to that one offered in ebay USA?:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Triumph-Tr3...%3A1|240%3A1318

 

If the link does not work, you can search for item number 130289152534 in www.ebay.com. T eitem will be visible until about next Monday midnight.

 

Jesus

 

Hola Jesus

 

It looks very similar but I think it is from a Standard 10 or the likes (not sure of these models).

Thanks for thinking of me. My TR3A has now got it's Informe and has passed ITV, waiting for Ficha Technica then I can pay the tax and get my matriculation and then onto the roads.

How is your TR3A coming along? any photos?

 

Dave

[jbenajes]

Hola Jesus

 

It looks very similar but I think it is from a Standard 10 or the likes (not sure of these models).

Thanks for thinking of me. My TR3A has now got it's Informe and has passed ITV, waiting for Ficha Technica then I can pay the tax and get my matriculation and then onto the roads.

How is your TR3A coming along? any photos?

 

Dave

 

 

Hello Dave,

 

 

 

I see that you are having great success with the Spanish paperwork. As you know, if you need some assistance, just tell me. Are you registering your TR3A as "historic"?

 

My TR3A is now completely painted and I am overhauling engine and gearbox. I have not removed the body from the chassis, but aside from that, I am afraid I will end up doing all the usual tasks of a complete restoration.

 

I have a lot of detail pictures of every part I tackle with, but no very interesting views of the car. As soon as I have some, I will send them to your email. Do you have some of yours?

 

Best regards.

 

Jesús

 

 

[GR8968]

Hello there, I am in US. I have a book with pix of TR3 Betas. The car in book is called, "Black Beta", one of the first or the first (prototype?) cars.

It has a pix of grill. Do you want name and author of book?

 

 

Hi Everybody

 

Has anyone got any more information on the TR3 BETA grill? - NOT THE TR3B grill which is the same as the TR3A.

In Bill Piggott's book "TRIUMPH BY NAME TRIUMPH BY NATURE" on page 23 is a superb frontal picture of a TR3 BETA, and this grill looks ideal for us chaps in hot climates to increase the air flow.

(Bill P. this includes you too please, if you are reading this enquiry!)

What I am looking for are dimensions and fixing arrangements, and if it can be modified to accept the parking/direction lights as these could not be fitted on the standard TR3A wings, the BETA wings being more bulbous to suit the wider track of the BETA.

I do not expect to be able to buy one of these grills, but maybe I can fabricate one up from drawings.

 

Thanks

 

Dave

[Dave Larnder]

Hello there, I am in US. I have a book with pix of TR3 Betas. The car in book is called, "Black Beta", one of the first or the first (prototype?) cars.

It has a pix of grill. Do you want name and author of book?

 

Hi There Greetings from Spain

 

Yes please could you send all details and any pictures .

[GR8968]

Hi There Greetings from Spain

 

Yes please could you send all details and any pictures .

 

 

Greetings! Hi this is what I have borrowed just this week from a friend.

Book: The Story of Triumph Sports Cars

Author: Graham Robson

First Published 1973

2nd impression 1974

Copyright 1973

 

ISBN 0 900549 23 8

 

Publisher: Motor Racing Publications, Ltd.

56 Fitzjames Avenue

Croydon, Surrey CR0 5DD - "L" 3.60 (price)

 

Dist'd in US by Motorbooks Int'l., Inc.

3501 Hennepin Avenue

South, Minneapolis, MN 55408

 

Library of Congress Catalog Car # 73-88323 - $10.95 (1973/74 price!)

 

One picture on page 98. Write up on page 101. So far I can only find ONE picture in book. I'm still reading and looking for more pix.

 

"Black Beta - the TR3B as it might have been, with a wide-track TR4 chassis under the old body, but with wider wings and a new grille. This was a very impressive car" (this is the caption underneath the picture in book).

 

"There was, however, one instant piece of resdeisgn conceived by the engineering department when they decided to build-up some TR3As with the standard chassis frame, but with wider tracks and the new steering layout. These, of course, would have looked completely ungainly because of wheels sticking out at the sides of the wings, so it was then necessary to have sets of more bulbous wings added to an otherwise unchanged TR3A bodyshell. The resulting prototypes -- TR3Bs or "Betas" as they were Triumph-coded -- were generally liked, and were really very nice cars and gave much more of an improvement over TR3A behaviour than these minor changes would suggest. Beta was a viable project for some time, particularly as it would involve only minimal tooling expense, and it was suggested that it might continue alongside a newly styled TR4 to give American dealers the best of both worlds. There was one particular experimental car, painted and trimmed black and bearing the obvious nickname of "Black Beta" which performed and handled like no TR had ever done before, for it had the 2.2-litre engine and a variety of extra touches."

 

I don't know how to get pix to you. I'm not a computer geekette but I can get a friend to maybe help me. The grill has 3 long vertical lines. Bumper has 2 little vertical protectors it looks like, right in front of grill (not too far to the sides of the bumper) and metal molding around the whole front grill.

[Dave Larnder]

Greetings! Hi this is what I have borrowed just this week from a friend.

Book: The Story of Triumph Sports Cars

Author: Graham Robson

First Published 1973

2nd impression 1974

Copyright 1973

 

ISBN 0 900549 23 8

 

Publisher: Motor Racing Publications, Ltd.

56 Fitzjames Avenue

Croydon, Surrey CR0 5DD - "L" 3.60 (price)

 

Dist'd in US by Motorbooks Int'l., Inc.

3501 Hennepin Avenue

South, Minneapolis, MN 55408

 

Library of Congress Catalog Car # 73-88323 - $10.95 (1973/74 price!)

 

One picture on page 98. Write up on page 101. So far I can only find ONE picture in book. I'm still reading and looking for more pix.

 

"Black Beta - the TR3B as it might have been, with a wide-track TR4 chassis under the old body, but with wider wings and a new grille. This was a very impressive car" (this is the caption underneath the picture in book).

 

"There was, however, one instant piece of resdeisgn conceived by the engineering department when they decided to build-up some TR3As with the standard chassis frame, but with wider tracks and the new steering layout. These, of course, would have looked completely ungainly because of wheels sticking out at the sides of the wings, so it was then necessary to have sets of more bulbous wings added to an otherwise unchanged TR3A bodyshell. The resulting prototypes -- TR3Bs or "Betas" as they were Triumph-coded -- were generally liked, and were really very nice cars and gave much more of an improvement over TR3A behaviour than these minor changes would suggest. Beta was a viable project for some time, particularly as it would involve only minimal tooling expense, and it was suggested that it might continue alongside a newly styled TR4 to give American dealers the best of both worlds. There was one particular experimental car, painted and trimmed black and bearing the obvious nickname of "Black Beta" which performed and handled like no TR had ever done before, for it had the 2.2-litre engine and a variety of extra touches."

 

I don't know how to get pix to you. I'm not a computer geekette but I can get a friend to maybe help me. The grill has 3 long vertical lines. Bumper has 2 little vertical protectors it looks like, right in front of grill (not too far to the sides of the bumper) and metal molding around the whole front grill.

Hi Dave again!

 

Thanks for the info. The frontal picture of the grill in Bill Piggott's book shows it perfectly but I need more details to try to manufacture one up, and to get it's fixings right as I don't want to modify my TR3A in any way, I just liked it for better airflow, also for getting insects out that have passed through the grill onto the apron section inside, and I think it gives the car greater character and individualism.

I am trying to find out how I can e mail you to give you my address without it being on the thread as this opens it up to SPAM suppliers if they know your e mail address. Any suggestions?

 

Dave

[BrianC]

I am trying to find out how I can e mail you to give you my address without it being on the thread as this opens it up to SPAM suppliers if they know your e mail address. Any suggestions?

If you use a PM it won't appear on the thread and no-one else will see it.