Electronic Ignition

[kev.w]

Hi everyone,

 

I've decided to fit electronic ignition to my TR4A and would like to know which type to fit. Any advice would be most welcome.

Thanks in advance.

 

Kev.w

[Ade-TR4]

Try Martin at Dizzy-doctor

 

Very knowledgeable chap

 

ade

[kev.w]

Try Martin at Dizzy-doctor

 

Very knowledgeable chap

 

ade

 

Hi Adi,

 

Thanks for that. I'll give him a call. Was that your blue TR4 in the Concours Hall at Malvern ? If so, very nice !!

 

Kev.w

[Robin Powell]

Hi Adi

 

I have had the Newtronic device on my TR4A for a number of years and have been very satisfyed with it.

[dave9469]

Hi Kev

 

I know this will not be a poplar reply but I've just fitted a megajolt to my 4A with a ford coil pack and EDIS4 module.

 

It's all relatively cheap and gives you modern fully mapable, fit, tune and forget setup.

 

The ford bits cost me £20 from a scrap yard and the megajolt is a DIY home build at £62 (this includes the new hard rev limit module at about £8). The soldering isn't too difficult but does consist of a few surface mounted components. They can be found built on eBay for between £80-£90 but that takes the fun out of it.

 

The only thing you need then is the trigger wheel and bracket. I took the more expensive approach and got a local engineering firm to machine my pulley with the 36 teeth but it can be done at home with a drill/dremal which is how I'm going to do my TR6 conversion.

 

So all considered you can have a fully programmable setup that you can alter for possible cheaper than a new distributer. For the purist (I nearly include myself) it's simple to change back to the standard dizzy setup if you come to sell and the purchaser doesn't like it.

 

I've run this setup for only 2 weeks now but I'm very happy with it even though I've just guessed at the advance figures. I'll take it to a rolling road in the next few months. The only issue I've got is with the plugs because I'm not sure if they were ever right. They look to be carboning up so they may be the wrong rating so a little more research is needed here.

 

Dave

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Dave,

 

Why not popular ?

 

Nothing wrong with a minor bit of innovative technology, particularly if the end result is greater efficiency.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[Ragtag]

Hi everyone,

 

I've decided to fit electronic ignition to my TR4A and would like to know which type to fit. Any advice would be most welcome.

Thanks in advance.

Kev.w

 

Hi Kev,

 

Sorry we didn't get a chance to speak much the other night.

 

If you just want to do away with the points and condenser and build in some reliability, you might consider the Aldon system. The beauty of it is that everything goes inside the dizzy so there is no external evidence of the conversion. I have found it reliable on my 6

[4Mal]

.... what about the 123 dizzy. Just had one fitted and the engine runs really well.

[piman]

Hello Kev,

 

I only have one question, why?

 

Alec

[johnny250]

Hi Kev

 

I know this will not be a poplar reply but I've just fitted a megajolt to my 4A with a ford coil pack and EDIS4 module.

 

It's all relatively cheap and gives you modern fully mapable, fit, tune and forget setup.

 

The ford bits cost me £20 from a scrap yard and the megajolt is a DIY home build at £62 (this includes the new hard rev limit module at about £8). The soldering isn't too difficult but does consist of a few surface mounted components. They can be found built on eBay for between £80-£90 but that takes the fun out of it.

 

The only thing you need then is the trigger wheel and bracket. I took the more expensive approach and got a local engineering firm to machine my pulley with the 36 teeth but it can be done at home with a drill/dremal which is how I'm going to do my TR6 conversion.

 

So all considered you can have a fully programmable setup that you can alter for possible cheaper than a new distributer. For the purist (I nearly include myself) it's simple to change back to the standard dizzy setup if you come to sell and the purchaser doesn't like it.

 

I've run this setup for only 2 weeks now but I'm very happy with it even though I've just guessed at the advance figures. I'll take it to a rolling road in the next few months. The only issue I've got is with the plugs because I'm not sure if they were ever right. They look to be carboning up so they may be the wrong rating so a little more research is needed here.

 

Dave

 

 

EXACTLY Dave....it's a great system....the switchable ignition maps could help those who want economy or performance I suppose too. Now looking at the Megasquirt EFI system having got the basic bits from Tony at Malvern....anyone here used that system....there is apparently a TR6 in my town but haven't seen it yet.

 

john

[MikeF]

Hello Kev,

 

I only have one question, why?

 

Alec

 

to me: I think to get away from unreliability of knackered mechanicals, cheap modern repro parts etc and also 'cos its fun and satisfying to do!

 

So far as I recall from long ago, [and changes in fuel + 40 years accumulated wear etc may have changed things], but in normal tune/use the 4 pot engine doesn't really benefit from electronic ignition as the used rev range is too slow. Also there was a post on this or similar matter a few weeks back where some one had been to a rolling road . I don't think it was the prime reason for going but some numbers were given for before and after electronic ignition power and there was no difference.

 

Mike

[Alec Pringle]

Electronic ignition isn't exactly a necessity on a 'standardish' wet liner engine, as Mike points out it doesn't rev high enough.

 

A rebuilt conventional distributor from Martin Jay ought to do just as good a job.

 

However, electronic ignition isn't without benefit on a tired engine - even back in the 70s, when average 4As tended to be fairly well clapped, early electronic units offered at least some improvement.

 

Of course if your engine is fairly well tuned, an electronic system might indeed be an advantage.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[piman]

Hello Mike,

 

OK, I can understand that from the interest but as long as you don't expect a quantum leap in running?

 

"the switchable ignition maps could help those who want economy or performance "

 

Can some one explain how you can gain economy by altering the timing? Vacuum advance on mechanical distributors work purely because the engine is set up weaker on cruise and the extra advance is used to get the engine to run cleanly. In other words it is the fuelling that gives the economy, not the timing.

 

Alec,

 

I don't believe that electronic ignition systems (those that just eliminate the points) will compensate for worn distributors or worse an incorrect specification one that has been fitted as a replacement.

 

The more I read about these conversions and in particular the 'mappable' systems that seems to be more popular makes me think of the old 'Emperors new clothes' story.

 

I spent many years in industrial (Electrical) maintenance and it was very common to modify a system to make it better, ignoring the fact that the original system works just as well as the modification if the defects that had occurred were corrected.

 

Alec

 

Alec

Edited July 26, 2008 by piman

[littlejim]

I speak from a position of ignorance, but one aspect of an electronic system that would appeal to me would be reliability. With no rubbing block to wear out and no points to get a build up on to alter the gap, I would expect the tune up settings to stay the same for a fair while. (Instead of starting to change from the first outing subsequently.)

I'd be quite happy with this result despite there being no increase in performance.

 

Many years ago I fitted a Mobilec Hall-effect system to a Merc 250 which I liked, but after about 5 years the thick HT lead used to fatigue from the constant flexing the vacuum and centrifugal advance caused.

Do the modern ones have this as a possible problem?

[stuart]

The original reason that the first examples of electronic ignition were used on TRs was to get over the problem of wear in the distributor shaft bearings that was present in most of them by then. For a 4 cylinder a new or rebuilt dizzy from Martin Jay works every bit as good as any electronic system.

Stuart.

[ChrisR-4A]

Hi everyone,

 

I've decided to fit electronic ignition to my TR4A and would like to know which type to fit. Any advice would be most welcome.

Thanks in advance.

 

Kev.w

 

Hi Kev, I have had the Magnetronic (in distributor unit on my 4A for 6 years, prior to that with points fitted the timing would need resetting every year (about 4000 miles), what a pain.

The only other changes are a K&N filters, a lucas sports coil and bob weight spring change using the Moss kit (about £9). Replacing one of the standard springs with a thicker one stopped the pinking without having to retard the ignition which would affect performance at all speeds.

 

This was before Martin Jay was offering his services and if you are not sure about experimenting with springs then I would recommend you have a chat with him.

 

Best Regards Chris

[RogerH]

Hi Alec (Piman),

the simplest form of EI wereby the points are made redundant has a useful effect in that you don't have the problem of fouled contacte etc. Also if the distributor has any minor wear in the bushes then the EI can ignore this to a great degree thus extending the life of the dizzy and subsequent cost. Having said that my little unit cost £60 and I believe it is now nearer £90 compared to a few quid for a set of points. My dizzy has done about 180,000 miles (the last 80,000 with a Magnetronic unit) appears to be OK.

 

I totally agree with you about re-inventing the wheel - the initial design was good and still is but modern technology gets in everywhere.

 

I feel a visit to Doc Martin coming on (wasn't he the grumpy bugger on ITV).

 

Roger

[fvo]

Hi Kev,

 

I bought the 123 last year after problems with my pertronics. I didn't go for the new 123 but sent mine of to put the 123 system in my old dizzy. This way you will get the tacho function as well. The car runs very well and I find it to give me better performance.

 

R,

Frits.

[kev.w]

Hi to you all,

 

Thankyou very much for all your comments !! Very interesting to get views from both 'camps'. The only reason for the original question was that I broke down on the way back from Malvern and it turned out to be points / condensor related. Various people at my local TR group have suggested I replace with electronic ignition due to the poor quality points / condensor / rotor parts available.

I have to say that having replaced the points and condensor, that my TR is running better than ever ! So I understand the views from both sides, which is why I'm a bit confused. I think I will speak to the Distributor Doctor as suggested by Adi.

 

Cheers !

 

Kev.w

[BrianC]

I hate to tempt fate, but in the days when I ran TRs as my only/ everyday transport, with knackered everything, I never had a failure of the distributor/points setup. Apart from regular 10,000 mile points changes, the only problem I had was a loose rivet on the coil spade terminal (also had this on a previous Spitfire). With a decent distributor and best quality points, rotor arms, etc, who really needs the electronics on cars doing typically less than 5,000 miles a year?

[Dazzer]

Watched this debate with interest.

 

I too run a 2000 and a TR4 on points and condenser, completely standard set, and ran 15K miles last year in the 2000, 100% reliable, didn't have to adjust anything, just replaced after 12 months. Much quicker than fitting electronic ignition as well. 5 minutes.

 

From my experience, being time served on all things BL (1970s) up to and including modern electronic set up, points and condenser are robustly reliable

 

What I mean by this is that if anything fails with a points and condenser set up, you can be up and running again within 5 minutes, if electronic ignition develops an internal fault you will be going home on a trailer. And electronic ignition does fail, even recent Renault systems 2002 on, complete catastrophic failure and flakey technology at very low mileage.

 

The other interesting side of the standard set up is that you can learn about the slight variations you will have, depending on the amount of wear within your distributor, its all good fun. If you set points and condenser up properly you should get at least 12 months at fairly high mileage.

 

Mind you I have fitted thousands of the things to every type of vehicle imaginable, its second nature I suppose, Its certainly not a difficult job once you've practised a bit, its like changing a bulb.

 

 

Cheers

 

Dazzer

[ChrisR-4A]

Watched this debate with interest.

 

I too run a 2000 and a TR4 on points and condenser, completely standard set, and ran 15K miles last year in the 2000, 100% reliable, didn't have to adjust anything, just replaced after 12 months. Much quicker than fitting electronic ignition as well. 5 minutes.

 

From my experience, being time served on all things BL (1970s) up to and including modern electronic set up, points and condenser are robustly reliable

 

What I mean by this is that if anything fails with a points and condenser set up, you can be up and running again within 5 minutes, if electronic ignition develops an internal fault you will be going home on a trailer. And electronic ignition does fail, even recent Renault systems 2002 on, complete catastrophic failure and flakey technology at very low mileage.

 

The other interesting side of the standard set up is that you can learn about the slight variations you will have, depending on the amount of wear within your distributor, its all good fun. If you set points and condenser up properly you should get at least 12 months at fairly high mileage.

 

Mind you I have fitted thousands of the things to every type of vehicle imaginable, its second nature I suppose, Its certainly not a difficult job once you've practised a bit, its like changing a bulb.

 

Cheers

 

Dazzer

 

 

 

Further to my extolling the virtues of electronic ignition I cannot argue with the above " if electronic ignition develops an internal fault you will be going home on a trailer", except that I carry a spare dizy top plate complete with points condenser fitted and adjusted in the boot of my 4A and I can revert to standard set up just by removing the two phillips head screws and replacing the plate complete, now you can't do that with a modern Renault.

 

I purchased the spare top plate about 10years ago, I think it came off a mk 1 Cortina and cost about £1.50, unfortunatly not so readily available today locally.

 

Best Regards Chris

Edited July 27, 2008 by potts4a

[johnny250]

Hello Mike,

 

OK, I can understand that from the interest but as long as you don't expect a quantum leap in running?

 

Can some one explain how you can gain economy by altering the timing? Vacuum advance on mechanical distributors work purely because the engine is set up weaker on cruise and the extra advance is used to get the engine to run cleanly. In other words it is the fuelling that gives the economy, not the timing.

 

They are both inter-related i.e mixture and timing....... megajolt has vacuum MAP sensor too...hence it's much easier adjusting by changing numbers than spring fiddling.

 

I don't believe that electronic ignition systems (those that just eliminate the points) will compensate for worn distributors or worse an incorrect specification one that has been fitted as a replacement.

 

I agree

 

The more I read about these conversions and in particular the 'mappable' systems that seems to be more popular makes me think of the old 'Emperors new clothes' story.

 

Don't knock it until you try it Alec ...

 

I spent many years in industrial (Electrical) maintenance and it was very common to modify a system to make it better, ignoring the fact that the original system works just as well as the modification if the defects that had occurred were corrected.

 

a bit resistant to change then? is that why all modern cars are fitted with electronic systems?

 

 

john

Edited July 28, 2008 by johnny250

[MikeF]

2 comments

 

1) Modern cars are not fitted with electronic ignition. Modern cars are fitted with an engine management system which meters via sensors inputs , out puts, airflow and so on and then very precisely meters fuel and times sparks in accordance with built in computer and lookup tables (mapping) so as to achieve very high engine efficiencies and fuel burn and meet stringent emission requirements.

I completely agree that in principal non mechanical electronic switched can be more reliable than mechanical, but I doubt very much that a mappable electronic ignition system is going to do very much in the absence of commensurate improvements in fuel control, air flow and so on. The TR engine is acknowledged as robust but even in the 50s was never regarded as state of the art, so yes you probably can get an optimum timing, but I think the question how useful different would it be to a mechanical system. It would be interesting to see some rolling road numbers, but I fear that might be too difficult to arrange, and would also stifle interesting debates of course.

 

2) On reliability: it is interesting to note the worrying trend (for manufacturers/ insurance companies) of the increase in electronics in modern cars and the corresponding effect on warranty claims, which are increasing more rapidly due to expense/impossibility of repairing electronics.

 

Mike

Edited July 28, 2008 by MikeF

[Badfrog]

Hi,

 

I went through that ignition conundrum too : why and what and ..... I finally think that:

 

1) standard car, standard driving : pertronix in the original Lucas 25D dizzy.

 

2A) modified car with leadfoot driver : race Lucas 45D dizzy (Cambridge sports) with pertronix. careful, pertronix ref differs between both dizzies.

2B) I now have the 123 Ignition set up at 30° max (curve nr 5) to accomodate the sprint 88 cam. Pure delight.

 

Pertronix is cheap, may fault. 123-Ignition is expensive, works perfectly and is most reliable.

 

Yours TRuly,

 

Badfrog

Edited August 27, 2008 by Badfrog