My rebuilt engine and gearbox

[Guest Wyn]

Following the recent photos I posted on the main forum, I mentioned that I would post my new engine performance figures once I had fitted my Omex Electronic ignition and had it fully tuned.

I had the Electronic Ignition mapped yesterday and a rolling road session followed. Verbally, I had been told by my engine builder to expect approx 200bhp at the flywheel. After much tinkering, I have acheived 126 at the wheels (max), torque and bhp is way down on what my engine acheived at the same RR prior to the rebuild. I had a rebore to +60, steel rods, tuftrided crank, lightened flywheel, all fully balanced, block bracing kit, harmonic damper, the supplier's best cylinder head with a CR of 10.5:1 and their own camshaft I'm told, fully rebuilt with roller rockers, the head alone (inc roller rockers) coming to just short of £2,500 inc VAT. Total engine cost exceeded £10k, I do not feel a happy chappy. I emailed and faxed the supplier the figues and asked why it should show these figures and also faxed a printout of the figures and not surprisingly, (based on previous experience) I have not had the courtesy of a reply.

I have spend just short of £20k with this supplier over the last year or so and the courtesy of a reply would have been nice. I feel unhappy mainly because he cannot be bothered to even reply to my concerns. I also had a top spec gearbox rebuild, new uprated overdrive, fully rebilt diff with LSD, hydraulic clutch release system etc etc. The clutch release I was assured was fitted correctly to the gearbox but when fitted it wouldn't work, I had the gearbox out three times and still I was assured it had been fitted correctly, I took the engine and gearbox back to them in a hired van (included overnight accomodation because of the distance) and asked them to check this again and I was assured it was correct. I fitted them both back in the car and still I had a bad clutch. I took the car back to them and asked them to check it, they made minor adjustments to the clutch pedal stop and said it was OK. My drive home seemed OK but on my return from the Rolling Road Centre, the only way I could engage reverse was to turn the engine off, engage the gear and start up again. Today I'm on the ramps again and have to take the gearbox out yet again. Thankfully, I have the kind assistance of a forum member who I will mention again, and I hope I can get it working since I will not get the assistance of the company who did the work for me. As the saying goes, you live and learn. If I do not put the experience of this well known TR specialist behind me, I will have to sell the car and forget I ever got involved in TRs which would be a pitty after so many years of effort just because of one person.

I will post future developments but feel free to pm me should you consider an expensive rebuild and I would be happy to discuss my experiences with you in order that you avoid similar stresses.

 

Regards

Wyn

[ianhoward]

Hi Wyn

 

Bl**dy He**, you have had a bad time . Very sorry to read your tales of woe... I do hope tha the person/people you dealt with eventually have the courtosy to remedy the situation...

 

I know it is not right to post the name of such people etc on an open forum, but surely something can be done...

 

Best regards

[Alec Pringle]

A woeful tale indeed - knowing more of the detail than Wyn has seen fit to mention in his posts.

 

As a comparison - a genuine 126bhp peak at the wheels is just about what we were getting 30 years ago from blueprinted, fully balanced prodsports TR6 engines - running standard CP cam, +.020" pistons and conventional ignition. That was at around 5,400rpm, and of course with good tractability from the CP cam. The standard clutch configuration, with uprated lining, coped perfectly well with that power output. The engines didn't blink at well over 6,000rpm through the gears.

 

Ruckwarts durch technik ?

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[david ferry]

Wyn,

 

As you know, I know all about the ongoing saga and problems you have experienced.

 

Did you ever have a written spec of the engine that states what the power and torque figures should be?

 

If you have then I would suggest that you send a 'strong letter' to the supplier concerned. This may need to be drafted by a lawyer in view of the amounts concerned.

 

I suspect that you would need to have your car examined by someone independent and put onto a calibrated rolling road (does such a thing exist?)

 

Whatever you do, don't lose heart with it. Your car looks superb and I am sure that it is superb in the 'flesh'.

 

Don't give up on this. You really should be due a proper resolution to this, given what you have been through and what you have spent with this particular supplier.

 

I just hopr you have written specs and expertations of results to be achieved. These will form the required contract that can be proved if needfs be. Conversations without notes are a little more difficult to prove.

 

Evidence will be vital. Keep notes of all you say and do concerning this matter.

 

Whatever you do, don't end up making any defamatory statements about the supplier, even if they are true. I know you will be careful about this.

 

Good luck.

 

You the support of many.

 

Regards

 

David

[jerrytr5]

That's a sorry tale.

You don't mention if you're still on injection or carbs, or what type of exhaust you use. It sounds like the engine isn't breathing well enough to take advantage of all the mods, either that or a fundamental problem with cam timing. Presumably it should be revving to the roof. Is it?

 

Jerry

[stephen cooper]

Hi, Sad to read about that. Without wanting to sound too controversial I bet in spending that much money on the engine & box etc the supplier is just a middle man taking his cut. I had a quick trawl through your previous posts to see who the supplier was likely to be.

 

Hope things get resolved but in Triumph circles I find most of the race brigade/people that into going faster aren't using Triumph specialists but are dealing directly with a small firm or individual who knows there stuff! I find it incredible Triumph owners in particularly TR owners have been buying tuning goodies over the last 25+ years from the likes of toilet tune that don't work at all are actually worse than the standard items. Get the anti bu*****it spray at the ready!

[Guest Wyn]

No, not a middle man Stephen. A Company that I still believe can build a very good engine. Perhaps here it could be down to cam timing (human error, we can all make mistakes), the cylinder head not what I thought I was getting or perhaps the carbs not jetted correctly although I have total faith in the guy who owns and runs the performance centre where it was set up on the rolling road. Who this specialist is is irrelevant now and I have no wish to take the car back there even if offered. Alec is correct, there is far more to this tale than I care to post for two reasons, firstly it would bring back to the front of my mind many things I have managed to put in the back of my mind and secondly, many would not believe what I was saying.

My priority now is to put the past experience behind me, get my clutch working properly and learn from my own mistakes. Harry asks if I had quotes etc in writing, you know the answer to your own question Harry. I have no real wish to discuss the supplier again, just get my car going. I only hope that I have inside my engine what I paid for. When I went to collect the engine initially, the only two things visible to me was the sump and rockers, there was no alloy finned sump and no roller rockers, I questioned this and was told that I had been asked and informed them that I didn't want them, when infact I paid paid for both months earlier. I asked for the CR to be increased from 9.5:1 to 10.5:1 and would return a couple of weeks later to collect the engine. I did this and on my return the engine was ready to lift into the van. I said 'nice to see the sump fitted, I trust I don't need to open the oil cap to check whether the roller rockers are fitted' and I was told 'no, no need for you to do that' by the owner and head mechanic. I returned home only to find that the roller rockers had not been fitted. I rang them up and was told that they didn't have any to fit. I has too shocked to even feel angry. They have subsequently been fitted.

 

Time to move on now, Ive had my say. Slagging people off now will not sort out my car and that's my priority.

 

Wyn

[Guest Wyn]

Sorry David, it was you that asked about all the written quotes not Harry. Thanks for your advice.

 

Regards

Wyn

[david ferry]

Wyn,

 

No problem.

 

Just remember, 'Nil carborundum illigitimo'.

 

If there is anything I can do to help, let me know.

 

For what it's worth, i think you have the right approach. However, I would pursue it in the future to get some of YOUR money back.

 

There is another thread running about poor quality parts sold by suppliers and these parts being poor quality as they are cheap. You have not gone down this route at all as you have spent loads on your car but not got what you have paid for.

 

In my simplistic way, I cannot see how any independent legal authority could suggest that you are not due financial recompense.

 

I don't think you could/would be forced to send your car back to the supplier to allow them yet another opportunity to put their work right. You have already done this and the result still is not what it should be.

 

If all else fails, continue to do what you are, thinking F*** them but enjoying your superb TR5.

 

Regards

 

David

[Bald Rick]

Wynn

 

I'm really sorry to hear your tale of woe. I hope you get it sorted soon. I spent a couple of thousand on my engine and gearbox. I was looking for a modest output (135bhp at the flywheel) but I don't think I've got anywhere near that, so I can sympathise. However, in my case it is all down to me!

 

Sometimes I get really fed up and don't go near the car for weeks, but I know that eventually I'll get it sorted and be able to leave Andrew Smith's TRK trailing in my wake .

 

I often read that the register is the place to go if you are unhappy with a supplier, have you tried that? Personally if I'd spent 20K for no result and then been ignored, litigation would be my next step. No question.

 

Whatever you do don't give up on the car. I'm sure you'll get it sorted and will really enjoy it when it's finished. I look forward to coming and drooling over it (not literally) at Malvern this year.

 

Just hang on in there. I have no doubt you'll be absolutely chuffed to bits with it soon.

 

Good luck

 

Tony

[Jersey Royal]

Wyn,

 

Sorry to hear of your grief, wish there was something i could do. The supplier has there reputation to think of, i would like to think they are just one of those firms where communication is not there strong point but they will sort it.

 

I am sure they would notice a down turn in business if they start to get disatified customers, i have seen this many times.

 

However, you still have a very very nice car there, and i love it.

 

 

Will see you at Malvern

 

Cheers

 

Guy

[Guest Wyn]

Thanks Guys for your comments. Tony, I can relate exactly to how you often feel and I'm sure many more would agree. Many times I have zipped mine up in the carcoon and tried to forget about it for my own sanity but it doesn't take me long to get it out again. I have no wish to take things any further with regards the supplier unless I have some major problem, I'm moving on and doing exactly what David said. Guy you are correct, it takes years to build up a good reputation but you can lose it on one job. Do a good job and they may tell one or two people, do a bad job and far more will get to know about it and continue like that and your business will not survive. To a certain extent, I am like Tony and only have myself to blame, far too trusting and never learn. Well, in this particular case, I feel I have learn't a very expensive lesson.

I will be at Malvern and had to read Tony's comments twice before deciding whether I wanted him anywhere near my car!! I hope you have your car running well soon and leave Andrew trailing in your wake plucking the flies from his eyes.

 

Thanks all

Wyn

[harrytr5]

Spoke to a member last night who has not been to a meeting for over a year.He has had his TR2 engine built by the very same company at the cost of 10 grand.Well F**K me,where does that huge cost go into an engine.Ok,

2-3 grand for steel billet crankshaft,say £900 for forged pistons,carrillo rods £1000-1200,flywheel,£2-300 and then the rebore,head etc,etc.10 Grand,well F**k me!!!.

Regards Harry TR5 Nutter.

[Guest Wyn]

I've shown a breakdown of my costs to people in the know locally, one an ex garage owner who has built a few classic rally cars and they do not think the costs are excessive and neither do I if I have what I have paid for and a little after sales service and respect with it. I recently received a pm from one of the most regular contributors to the form posting asking about how much an engine is likely to cost and he had been quoted in the region of £10k by another recognised and well respected TR supplier. Labour is not cheap and soon mounts up these days, gone are the days of £15ph. I've now got the gearbox out (no cost whatsoever!), where would I be without my Kwik Lift, sadly used far too often for my liking. Now for the fun bit of measuring whether to shim and where to get shims from.

 

Wyn

[Tom Fremont]

This tale has an uncanny parallel to many in my business dealings with large machinery repair specialists ( stamping presses ). No matter how much they do to provide value and quality work they inevitably wind up with dissatisfied customers who then seek out other services for subsequent work. Ultimately they, too, disappoint and the cycle repeats. No one is immune, in my experience.

 

It would seem to be the nature of the beast.

 

Here' another factor in all of this ( both in the TR and industrial versions ): the best in the business tend to be a bit longer in the tooth, and, regrettably for the disgruntled, rather more choosy in their customers (!) For my part, I would never trade my industrial business for one dealing with consumers, especially in the TR fraternity, which same comprises no doubt the most difficult customers on the planet ( myself included ) as we are so emotionally over-wrought and attached to our toys that woe betide any supplier unfortunate enough to cross us ( notwithstanding how gracious and sweet we can be when outcomes are good ).

[Guest Wyn]

You've lost me on that one Tom I'm afraid. I'm not unhappy because I love my TR5, I'm unhappy when my adrenalin is pumping before picking up the phone to ask where the invoice I had been promised is (having of course paid months before) knowing that last time I had been told, I'm too f'ing busy to think about your f'ing invoice, you'll get your f'ing invoive when I'm ready to f'ing send it. Another time I asked how my engine was progressing and unless I could be given a date, irrespective of how far ahead it was, I would fetch it and take it elsewhere, I receive an email stating 'you are obviously a deeply troubled person'. Another time when I'm owed a refund for something I had paid for and it never arrived, I received an email stating 'I've been on holiday and have no money, you will have to wait till I've replenished my bank account'. Me awkward, only when I'm pissed about, otherwise I will go out of my way to be understanding and would always do anything to help anyone.

I do not agree with the saying that the customer is always right, I know as I too run my own business, but remember that they are not always wrong either.

 

Wyn

 

p.s. Not a personal thing Tom, you just touched a nerve

[Tom Fremont]

Hi Wyn,

 

I really regret touching a nerve with you, especially under the present circumstances. I should have emphasized that our disappointments are usually valid and the " nature of the beast " is that they happen with regularity.

 

If I might suggest ( as a friend of the perpetrator of your injury as it stands ): hang in there, give it a little breathing room and I feel you will get the result you always hoped for.

 

FWIW, I think many share this type of experience in general ( e.g., 3X the time and money to restore body and chassis on my last project ) and I could add that such difficulties ( albeit not always with rudeness ) are common to the highest grade specialists - as if their talents w/r to vintage cars are not matched by their social skills or sensibilities .

[Guest Wyn]

No problem Tom, probably my fault, more than a little touchy about this subject right now.

 

Regards

Wyn

[johnny250]

Hi Wyn,

a very sad tale, but unfortunately you are not alone....... as I touched on in the Rebuilders Diary recently, I have been rather 'let down' by the company (one man) I chose to paint my car..... I've been waiting for 7 years now since he first took away the body for fettling and painting...many thousands of pounds later and I still don't yet have any wings, boot or bonnet.... unanswered phone calls and promises broken seem par for the course...excuses as to why.....would make a good novel!

 

keep your pecker up

john

[kev.w]

Following the recent photos I posted on the main forum, I mentioned that I would post my new engine performance figures once I had fitted my Omex Electronic ignition and had it fully tuned.

I had the Electronic Ignition mapped yesterday and a rolling road session followed. Verbally, I had been told by my engine builder to expect approx 200bhp at the flywheel. After much tinkering, I have acheived 126 at the wheels (max), torque and bhp is way down on what my engine acheived at the same RR prior to the rebuild. I had a rebore to +60, steel rods, tuftrided crank, lightened flywheel, all fully balanced, block bracing kit, harmonic damper, the supplier's best cylinder head with a CR of 10.5:1 and their own camshaft I'm told, fully rebuilt with roller rockers, the head alone (inc roller rockers) coming to just short of £2,500 inc VAT. Total engine cost exceeded £10k, I do not feel a happy chappy. I emailed and faxed the supplier the figues and asked why it should show these figures and also faxed a printout of the figures and not surprisingly, (based on previous experience) I have not had the courtesy of a reply.

I have spend just short of £20k with this supplier over the last year or so and the courtesy of a reply would have been nice. I feel unhappy mainly because he cannot be bothered to even reply to my concerns. I also had a top spec gearbox rebuild, new uprated overdrive, fully rebilt diff with LSD, hydraulic clutch release system etc etc. The clutch release I was assured was fitted correctly to the gearbox but when fitted it wouldn't work, I had the gearbox out three times and still I was assured it had been fitted correctly, I took the engine and gearbox back to them in a hired van (included overnight accomodation because of the distance) and asked them to check this again and I was assured it was correct. I fitted them both back in the car and still I had a bad clutch. I took the car back to them and asked them to check it, they made minor adjustments to the clutch pedal stop and said it was OK. My drive home seemed OK but on my return from the Rolling Road Centre, the only way I could engage reverse was to turn the engine off, engage the gear and start up again. Today I'm on the ramps again and have to take the gearbox out yet again. Thankfully, I have the kind assistance of a forum member who I will mention again, and I hope I can get it working since I will not get the assistance of the company who did the work for me. As the saying goes, you live and learn. If I do not put the experience of this well known TR specialist behind me, I will have to sell the car and forget I ever got involved in TRs which would be a pitty after so many years of effort just because of one person.

I will post future developments but feel free to pm me should you consider an expensive rebuild and I would be happy to discuss my experiences with you in order that you avoid similar stresses.

 

Regards

Wyn

 

Hi Wyn,

 

Sorry to hear about your bad experiece. Must be very very frustrating for you ! That's alot of money to spend, and for the company to treat you like that is Bl***y disgusting. Bast***s want naming and shaming in my view. Hope you get it all sorted. I HATE bad service.

Regards,

Kevin.

[Bob Stubbs]

I have to say to all out there that Wyn's car really is as good as it looks and when he very kindly took me for a run in it, it sounded great and went well too. Its a fantastic piece of kit Wyn and you should rightly be proud of it and, despite all the hassles with the supplier, I'm sure you'll get it sorted to your satisfaction, despite the non-co-operation of said company.

 

Having shelled out that kind of money, you would expect that any responsible business would do what they could to rectify the problem before their reputation was dragged down in the eyes of other TR enthusiasts. Perhaps its partly because we are not allowed to reveal who the company is through this forum that we they feel in some way protected and able to carry on as they do.

 

I have in fact used the same supplier over the last year for work that ran into several thousand pounds and only met up with Wyn by chance as circumstances sometimes happen. But it was a salutary tale chatting to him on the treatment he has had and is a gaurantee that I too will not deal with that particular supplier again in the future.

 

All power to you Wyn (literally in this case !!), keep at it. Your car's a cracker and you will get it sorted in time.

[Guest Wyn]

Thanks Bob for your support and kind words. To make it clear, I'm not happy with the figures following my visit to the rolling road. This may, or may not be down to the supplier who built the engine, he had dyno figures of 165bhp at the flywheel with a CR of 9.5 : 1, this was subsequently increased to 10.5 : 1 and the fully mapped electronic ignition fitted. I was told verbally at the time that I should then expect approx 200bhp at the flywheel. Of course, I can only have figures at the wheels now. I do not believe he would quote figures he would not expect to acheive, and as stated before, he can build a very good engine if he wants to, I'm mystified. My unhappiness with the supplier is directed more at the service and way in which I was treated. The only other answer would be the incorrect jetting of the webers but I bow to the Rolling Road owners experience here. Having said that, information that I have sourced off the Internet suggest that I should have far larger Idle jets and also different main jets, but who am I to question his opinion, I know nothing about them to be honest. If anyone knows someone who I could phone to discuss this with, someone with a good working knowledge of weber carbs on these cars, please let me know. My priority now is to get the dreaded clutch working properly, run the car for a couple of thousand miles and then maybe have another Rolling Road session. Alec, I may contact you in due course following advice you kindly gave me relating to this in the past.

 

Wyn

[marvmul]

'The best cylinder head' and 'their own camshaft' are unclear descriptions. The Webers can be jetted to suit any engine and the other items (rods, crankshaft ...) are not directly related to power, so if your car has been tuned as it should, with the correct jetting and ignition advance etc., the lack of power is due to the cylinderhead and/or camshaft. I would press the supplier to provide detailed specifications of the camshaft and the cylinderhead. If he is not willing to do that, one can suspect he has sold to you compromised parts,or parts that were most convenient(cheap) to purchase for him, maybe at a time when the relationship was already troubled.

With the camshaft in the engine, duration, maximum lift, overlap, valve lift to crank position can be determined. Are the roller rockers standard or with a higher ratio? Not every camshaft is suited for a higher ratio. Perhaps it's not simple to find , but some people surely can judge a cylinderhead by eye and sometimes the poor quality of work is obvious.

[Guest Wyn]

I'm more than aware that the conords and crank etc are not related to power, this was to paint a picture of the type of engine I was building and the bottom end 'strength'. I have full details of the camshaft as it is the same one as I had in the engine prior to the rebuild. I have no real wish to discuss this matter further, I will run the car (which goes very well apart from the clutch problem that is) for a couple of thousand miles and re-assess the situation from there. Re the 'best cylinder head' unfortunately we do not all posess the same level of technical knowledge and I rely on my supplier to supply me with what I want. He may have done so and if that is the case, then it is a matter of setting it up, jetting etc, although as mentioned previously, I trust the Rolling Road owner who has an exellent reputation.

 

Wyn

 

Wyn

[marko]

Wyn,

 

We've had similar clutch problems in the past.

 

On a couple of occasions we have fitted a larger clutch slave cylinder (saloon car one I think) to increase the throw.

 

I'm guesing you've checked and adjusted all this from under the car?