Heavy breathing

[Nigel C]

Hi All,

I seem to remember that the TR4's had some sort of breather on the rocker cover (due to export issues?) and wondered what the I.D. was for the feed.

 I've cobbled together a breather for the rocker cover on my 4 pot TR engine using a nifty little inline catch tank which has a baffle and filter within. The take off from the inlet manifold is from the servo port (I'm assuming) and goes into the back (non standard) of an Ali after market rocker cover. I've turned up a small "bung" with 2.5mm hole to go in the end of the manifold take off fitting, is this near enough/to small/to large?

If it works properly I will do a better install at a later date.

 

     

 

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

4 hours ago, Nigel C said:

Hi All,

I seem to remember that the TR4's had some sort of breather on the rocker cover (due to export issues?) and wondered what the I.D. was for the feed.

 I've cobbled together a breather for the rocker cover on my 4 pot TR engine using a nifty little inline catch tank which has a baffle and filter within. The take off from the inlet manifold is from the servo port (I'm assuming) and goes into the back (non standard) of an Ali after market rocker cover. I've turned up a small "bung" with 2.5mm hole to go in the end of the manifold take off fitting, is this near enough/to small/to large?

If it works properly I will do a better install at a later date.

 

     

 

What service interval do you expect to clear out the condensation and oil from the little catch tank?

I think the bore of the union was 3/8”

[monty]

All this appears to be doing is replacing the original PCV. As I understand it a proper catch tank arrangement should be similar to the Racetorations kit that I have fitted, which is a hose from the rocker cover to the catch tank complete with flame trap, along with a second hose from the engine block to the tank & then an outlet from the tank to the outside. This creates a better engine breathing system than the original PCV setup. If you see the muck my catch tank collects that is no longer going anywhere near the inlet manifold!

[Nigel C]

19 hours ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

What service interval do you expect to clear out the condensation and oil from the little catch tank?

I think the bore of the union was 3/8”

Hi Peter,

Yes I was wondering when I fitted it but hey, worth a fiddle... I've done about 100 miles and it was pretty well full 

[Nigel C]

6 hours ago, monty said:

All this appears to be doing is replacing the original PCV. As I understand it a proper catch tank arrangement should be similar to the Racetorations kit that I have fitted, which is a hose from the rocker cover to the catch tank complete with flame trap, along with a second hose from the engine block to the tank & then an outlet from the tank to the outside. This creates a better engine breathing system than the original PCV setup. If you see the muck my catch tank collects that is no longer going anywhere near the inlet manifold!

and agreed what has been "catched" is not very nice!

[Nigel C]

One of the main reasons for fitting this catch tank was to see IF I had any water in the oil as things were a little suspect. I've had a lot of issues with this engine build and I think I've now put most of them to bed except a slow loss of water and a bit of cream cheese in the rocker cover.

I had all four long studs leaking and managed to put all bar one to bed with a culmination of undoing individually, coating Welseal and re-torquing and then, last resort (well I thought it was my last resort!) K-Seal. This last one (inside towards the back) is still putting up a fight.

So I've bitten the bullet and bought one of these kits so I can pressurise the system without the engine running.

  

Very happy with it TBH. pressurised the system to 10lbs whilst cold, no problems.

Pressurised to 10lbs hot and what do you know.....

 

Now I'm only running a 4lb cap but I suspect under load/spirited driving this may well be happening.

Its been removed before and liberally coated in Welseal but that doesn't seem to be enough.

QUESTION:

where do I go from here 

[Motorsport Mickey]

Wind one of the other cylinder head studs of identical length in as per normal using a double nut on the top thread and a socket and short wrench and count the turns rotating 90 deg a time so you have an idea of what is the bottom stud screwing length.

PTF tape on the bottom stud thread form which is leaking and screw it in with a short socket wrench using a double nut on the top thread. Carry out the same again on the PTF treated stud counting the turns, stop instantly you feel resistance when you arrive at the same amount of turns. Then proceed as normal. I used to go full Tonto on the race engines and run with Barrs leaks as well, not such a problem on a race engine, they are in and out and stripped and built a couple of times a season anyway, never had a blockage on radiator or heater radiator.

Mick Richards

Edited October 17, 2023 by Motorsport Mickey

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Why not do what Triumph suggest in their engine build film?

That is…..place a wrap of lead linger under the cylinder head washers and torque as usual.   The lead squishes down the gap between head stud and head forming a good seal and stopping any water leak up the stud from the water gallery.

[Motorsport Mickey]

+1  I do that as preference to the PTF tape, but hey why not do both.

Mick Richards

[Nigel C]

19 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Wind one of the other cylinder head studs of identical length in as per normal using a double nut on the top thread and a socket and short wrench and count the turns rotating 90 deg a time so you have an idea of what is the bottom stud screwing length.

PTF tape on the bottom stud thread form which is leaking and screw it in with a short socket wrench using a double nut on the top thread. Carry out the same again on the PTF treated stud counting the turns, stop instantly you feel resistance when you arrive at the same amount of turns. Then proceed as normal. I used to go full Tonto on the race engines and run with Barrs leaks as well, not such a problem on a race engine, they are in and out and stripped and built a couple of times a season anyway, never had a blockage on radiator or heater radiator.

Mick Richards

Hi Mick,

So your practice is to find the bottom of the stud threaded hole and not over tighten? does over tightening of the stud stress the block further? 

In your experience are the leaks from the threaded section of the hole?

I have read about lead linger before with these engines but have drawn a blank as to where to get it from, would "normal" solder or thin copper wire work?

I will also draw your collective attentions to the fact this is an Ali head so lower torque settings and probably more expansion/contraction?

 

thanks all 

[Motorsport Mickey]

Hi Nigel,

No, finding the bottom of the hole us NOT what you want to do, if the stud screws in and bottoms out and then you torque the stud if the cylinder head nut imparts any further torque to the stud, yes it can damage and overstress the block or threads.

I always clean the block threaded holes out and of course the stud thread also, then I wind the stud in by hand (preferably with no tools so you can feel the thread engagement) or using a short socket wrench if the stud is too stiff by hand. When the stud abuts the thread in the block by stopping at the end of the stud thread, stop winding instantly, there should still be clearance under the stud end. This should then avoid further torque input from the head nuts when torqued either stripping the block thread or lifting the thread form at the hole entrance. 

The block leaks can be from a variety of places from water jacket to the stud hole, that's why the K Seal is a good sealing agent being very fine and gets drawn into the cracks and blocks it off, you do need to allow at least a couple of hundred miles for the K Seal to penetrate and seal, I used to run with it permanently in my Stag (normal practice for Stag owners). But on the TR I'd graduated onto the Barrs leaks and never had problems with it on the TR4. 

I rebuilt a TR engine for a customer years ago with a block leak that percolated up a head stud and sealed it using the method I described above. I've since used the lead linger seal around studs on race engines going belt and braces at it, and when I've been torquing to 110 lb ft with dry threads and no lube. The lead linger used to be available through Moss some years ago, I'd happily use that, it flattens amazingly and forms a neat seal against the studs and cylinder head. I'm not sure how solder might work, it's probably the closest to the lead in softness, whereas the copper is probably too firm.  

Mick Richards 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Motorsport Mickey

[Nigel C]

thanks Mick for further explanations.... I'll try and get onto it tomorrow and see what happens, I wish I'd bought this pressure kit years ago as it works so well.

I've done about 2000 miles with the K seal in and totally agree it takes time to flush though; you could slowly see (on the two long studs on the outside of the rocker cover) the coolant change colour from very pale blue to a duller/murky colour and stop. but this last one clearly is still put up a fight!

want to try and get it sorted for a run down to Silverstone at the weekend.

[Charlie D]

12 hours ago, Nigel C said:

I have read about lead linger before with these engines but have drawn a blank as to where to get it from

 

12 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

The lead linger used to be available through Moss some years ago, I'd happily use that, it flattens amazingly and forms a neat seal against the studs and cylinder head. I'm not sure how solder might work, it's probably the closest to the lead in softness, whereas the copper is probably too firm.  

If you do a search for "Lead wire" on eBay you get quite a selection. (I guess "Linger" is just a posh word for "Wire".)

It comes in various thicknesses and it seems fishermen use it, so maybe a local fishing tackle shop may stock it.

Charlie

[Motorsport Mickey]

Good thought Charlie, although the lead weights used in fishing now have a substitute material ( non lead to avoid water contamination when lost, quite often during the day). So what may be advertised as “ lead wire” … may not be upon inspection.

Mick Richards

[Michel Higuet]

Just a question about condensation, no water in the oil but could this muck indicate a discrete leak or is it normal? 

 

[Nigel C]

could be, I've just invested in one of these and two neighbour's have already used it too!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Holdfiturn-Coolant-Pressure-Radiator-Detector/dp/B0C9CMDT3N/ref=asc_df_B0C9CMDT3N/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=658790319296&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7213878444975474448&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006573&hvtargid=pla-2195318046361&psc=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwhL6pBhDjARIsAGx8D5_FCFKCoy8IcyIX50w0LPVurN5cZhtcaeHXs9W38jmxF0cVH21hdeYaAkxNEALw_wcB 

[Michel Higuet]

15 minutes ago, Nigel C said:

could be, I've just invested in one of these and two neighbour's have already used it too!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Holdfiturn-Coolant-Pressure-Radiator-Detector/dp/B0C9CMDT3N/ref=asc_df_B0C9CMDT3N/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=658790319296&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7213878444975474448&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006573&hvtargid=pla-2195318046361&psc=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwhL6pBhDjARIsAGx8D5_FCFKCoy8IcyIX50w0LPVurN5cZhtcaeHXs9W38jmxF0cVH21hdeYaAkxNEALw_wcB 

20 years ago most of nut to secure the head on my TR are inverted, would it be dangerous to invert them one by one of the time? 

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Lead Linger  30123

I have just been out and checked my stocks.  I have less than one reel left which is probably 15 engine's worth if you use 2 foot per engine.

Nigel, yours is on its way.

 

Here is how I do it with one wrap on the stud under the washer, but on top of the head.

[Ian Vincent]

Would a lead washer do the same job?  In which case any builders merchant will sell you some code 4 lead from which you can make them.  I have also used lead washers under any earth connections I want to make to the chassis/bodywork.  I clean back to bare metal and then fit a lead washer before tightening down with a normal flat washer.  The lead both protects against corrosion and ensures a good connection.

Rgds Ian

[Motorsport Mickey]

Lead washer…hmmm Never used them, but I would be doubtful it it would have enough point loading to spread enough, to backfil the gaps.  The lead linger spreads almost like putty and gets into the gap going down into the space between stud and washer, sealing it.

Mick Richards

[Nigel C]

11 hours ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Lead Linger  30123

I have just been out and checked my stocks.  I have less than one reel left which is probably 15 engine's worth if you use 2 foot per engine.

Nigel, yours is on its way.

 

Here is how I do it with one wrap on the stud under the washer, but on top of the head.

What more can I say, thank you so much for your time and efforts Peter, please let me know how I can reimburse you for your efforts.

This is why people should believe in the value of clubs, especially forums/area meetings/grass roots!.

I do try to support my "little flock" in the same way.

Once again, thank you

 

Nige

 

 

[Ralph Whitaker]

As lead linger seems hard to get today, would something like PTFE plumbers tape do the same job of sealing the threads?

Ralph

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

53 minutes ago, Ralph Whitaker said:

As lead linger seems hard to get today, would something like PTFE plumbers tape do the same job of sealing the threads?

Ralph

Not really as the lead deforms when squashed and fills/seals the gap between the stud and the cylinder head, stopping any water that might be coming up the gap between the stud and head from leaking out.  I guess a blob of RTV under the head washers might serve as well.  Could look horrid also!

On rear axles there is a Triumph recommendation to put a smear of sealing compound on the drive flange area that is under the big washer that the pinion nut tightens to to seal the flange to the pinion splines.  Small amounts of oil do seep from that area if the sealant is not applied.   Particularly in service after many 1000's of miles when the flange loosens and the  pinion nut has not been re-torqued; its tightness having dropped due to bearing wear and settling.  

Edited October 20, 2023 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[RobH]

0.6mm stuff available ( fly tying lead wire):

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/354553344947?hash=item528d06b3b3:g:kZEAAOSwqu9VUg8I&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4DGG7DEmUccoys43loDosN53fC0TisXnxQ5ZXQmWSPXGqJjQ1p1eKMfuPC4ohOzfkbIA4pf3J0hxbNcajXc0yYN0niDhN%2F7%2FHKM4A%2BeQ8A28K%2BGDGXX8WbaV4Mju5LjXmre2h%2Bn0ASFW%2BD4HVTWIYgMSzt9bHK7l0TV8vAIDHza03cKP3IHd5T0nENTk9oeh4Om0U%2F1AkmoF77bKyL1%2FtuHMz6Cm%2B8MSZoUOj%2BEQJ5O%2B0FEdcfE%2FF6hHfr3XxghSb2LbfHKGKNsscvbSL50HlUrlJrPXEqh9DSB0%2BW1%2Frg42|tkp%3ABk9SR4bil9PpYg

[ianc]

As an apprentice, and thereafter, I used multicore solder for plumbing and similar work.   Nowadays, multicore is not so common, but there is lead solder (or what purports to be lead solder) which has no embedded flux.   Would that suffice in place of lead linger, or would it be too hard.

When soldering nowadays, I use a flux paste or soldering fluid, making sure that joints are wiped clean because the flux is corrosive stuff.

Ian Cornish