Energy use legislation

[RogerH]

Sadly Keith, our little world is changing faster than the politicians can make a buck out of a credible idea.

Any idea ( the dafter the better) is good for a backhander.  

To me things started to go awry with John Prescott's Condenser boilers that really didn't work. Awful things.

They may have improved over the years but it has left a permanent scar  and I pray that my old fashioned boiler see's me out.

 

Roger

 

[Misfit]

Well it’s if someone organised it, it’s possible that the public against what’s going on will wish to take a leaf out off just stop oil, perhaps they will feel the need to protest, do slow walks or 5 mile an hour drive through cities. Some might want to write to your MPs daily maybe twice a day. Even email them, some may feel the need to attend or picket their constituency office to make their point of view known.  Depends how annoyed they are.

[RobH]

Unfortunately the majority of the people will not wake up until it is too late - either when it starts hitting them hard in the pocket and they find themselves sitting in the cold and dark, or when they are up in front of the beak for having the wrong type of boiler/insulation/car or merely having the wrong opinions.  If anything warranted riots like the poll-tax ones, this is it. 

Somehow all MPs need to be made aware that they, and they alone, will be held personally responsible for the consequences of the appalling net zero legislation they have enacted.  

[ntc]

Octopus have today announced free air source heat pump if you get the government grant beginning of the end .

[Peter Cobbold]

6 minutes ago, ntc said:

Octopus have today announced free air source heat pump if you get the government grant beginning of the end .

Clearly Octopus are expecting to make loads of dosh selling their kWh. Especially in winter when ashp barely make more heat than put in.

 

 

[ntc]

Want to bet the rest will follow.

[RobH]

 

25 minutes ago, ntc said:

beginning of the end

Not really. they have a high-temperature heat pump so the 'free' is because you may not need changes to the radiators etc which is the expensive bit.  However the heat pumps must be less efficient than low temp heat pumps  because of the extra power required to increase temperature , so as Peter says in really cold weather you may effectively be paying for 1:1 electric heating.    Expensive then - might as well use fan heaters. 

The new 'Cosy' pump also seems to rely on some sort of control-over-the-internet to optimise things so you may not get heat when you want it either. 

Max output is 6kW  which might be enough for a very small and exceptionally well insulated dwelling.  My present rather small gas boiler is rated at 17.5kW.............

 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by RobH

[ntc]

9 minutes ago, RobH said:

 

Not really. they have a high-temperature heat pump so the 'free' is because you may not need changes to the radiators etc which is the expensive bit.  However the heat pumps must be less efficient than low temp heat pumps  because of the extra power required to increase temperature , so as Peter says in really cold weather you may effectively be paying for 1:1 electric heating.    Expensive then - might as well use fan heaters. 

The new 'Cosy' pump also seems to rely on some sort of control-over-the-internet to optimise things so you may not get heat when you want it either. 

Max output is 6kW  which might be enough for a very small and exceptionally well insulated dwelling.  My present rather small gas boiler is rated at 17.5kW.............

 

 

Not the case Rob my old house was ground source and big ask Stuart and I never had to use more than 3kwh to heat light and cook

[Peter Cobbold]

Ground source is much more effective ( CoP) year-round, than ashp. But the install cost ( a long deep trench) and need for land to dig it, rules it out for most properties.

 

[ntc]

Peter that was running Cop 4.1 at that time and new air source pumps can do more than that,

anyway back to topic the nutters will force the change and all of us will pay for it and even more if you don’t change 

[Motorsport Mickey]

1 hour ago, ntc said:

Octopus have today announced free air source heat pump if you get the government grant beginning of the end .

You need to read the Octopus offer Neil, they hope it may work out that way, but it's not guaranteed.

Mick Richards

[ntc]

1 minute ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

You need to read the Octopus offer Neil, they hope it may work out that way, but it's not guaranteed.

Mick Richards

I did Mick and as I said the rest will follow but hey ho we have a pm that nobody voted for and spending your money on Indian companies that continue to fail at making a good product when he is gone to the USA we will be left with another bunch of idiots running the country I dread where we are going.

[Peter Cobbold]

1 hour ago, ntc said:

Peter that was running Cop 4.1 at that time and new air source pumps can do more than that,

anyway back to topic the nutters will force the change and all of us will pay for it and even more if you don’t change 

Neil, ASHP will struggle in winter air at 0C to reach COP1. GSHPs run at ca 10C ground temperature year round. ASHPs can also ice up.

As for the legislation, it is far too expensive for most voters and I reckin it will not be enforcable. Like the supposed change to ecars by 2030 the target is impossible to meet. Lack of a skills base, lack of skilled labour, and likely lack of grid capacity too, doom the legislation.  Peter

 

[PodOne]

58 minutes ago, ntc said:

I did Mick and as I said the rest will follow but hey ho we have a pm that nobody voted for and spending your money on Indian companies that continue to fail at making a good product when he is gone to the USA we will be left with another bunch of idiots running the country I dread where we are going.

We are going only one way Neil and that's down and out.

We have let our entire culture, values, traditions along with our industrial base wither or sold it off into foreign ownership who have then asset striped out the technology a trend we are still actively doing by allowing the universities to host masses of so called Chinese students with an agenda of acquiring knowledge to feed there own countries ends. To think any different is naive in the extreme. Personally I would stop it before there is nothing left for them to acquire.

The flagship of the UK's Tec has even recently jumped ship to New York and is more or less essentially foreign owned. Even the much vaunted finical sector I suspect will shrink to nothing. Deservedly so as they have sought dividends and profit over supporting long term investment. 

There's going to be a reckoning and as said there was mass protest over poll tax. The current measures will make this pale in comparison when folk are quite literally freezing in the dark and stripped of any accumulated wealth.

I wonder if the rest of the world will be then running to our aid or perhaps it will be our families climbing into boats looking for a better life. I wouldn't blame them there's nothing here to aspire to. Not even the prospect of a home for a large majority of the younger age groups not that they could afford the heating bills.

The politicians need to be concentrating on the UK's quality of life and not the loony left agenda which will see us all eating lentils and shod in sack cloth. The world is laughing at us!

Enough from me I'm sickened by our so called leaders we the people deserve much better. They should do the decent thing and disappear.

I'm out.

[RogerH]

I agree totally in your words but sadly those in power would say  you are wrong.

It is not to their advantage to accept they are doing it wrong.

The opposition only oppose to make themselves look good - they have no answers.

For the last 50 years ALL our Govt's have run things down and given it away - in an odd way rather like this  car club.  So, so sad.

 

Roger

[ntc]

5 minutes ago, RogerH said:

I agree totally in your words but sadly those in power would say  you are wrong.

It is not to their advantage to accept they are doing it wrong.

The opposition only oppose to make themselves look good - they have no answers.

For the last 50 years ALL our Govt's have run things down and given it away - in an odd way rather like this  car club.  So, so sad.

 

Roger

No comment Roger 

[Peter Cobbold]

Look on the bright side, none of us on here are young enough to be here to experience the horrible tragedies that will unfold this century.

 

[SuzanneH]

9 minutes ago, Peter Cobbold said:

Look on the bright side, none of us on here are young enough to be here to experience the horrible tragedies that will unfold this century.

 

But……..our children and grandchildren will.

[PodOne]

1 hour ago, SuzanneH said:

But……..our children and grandchildren will.

That's what sickens me the most and the millions who died only 75 years ago - for what?

[Peter Cobbold]

13 hours ago, PodOne said:

That's what sickens me the most and the millions who died only 75 years ago - for what?

.........for democracy. The irony is that democratic institutions cannot prevent environmental disaster, until their electorates globally realise action is imperative. And by then it will be too late.  At present, few will vote to stop using fossil fuels, stop flying, become veggie, and live local with a light footprint and accept negative economic growth.  The population of North Korea come close to that ideal, but they do not vote for it.

 

 

[PodOne]

Democracy in its current form has run its course with the characters in charge who have long forgotten what they were elected to do. In short they have no morales or values let alone common sense!

If there’s one thing and I’ve said it before is population stabilisation then reduction which I would support and vote for. All polices, incentives, taxes, benefits and foreign aid should relate to it. That would bring humanity back into balance with the planet.

 

[Bleednipple]

15 hours ago, Peter Cobbold said:

Neil, ASHP will struggle in winter air at 0C to reach COP1. GSHPs run at ca 10C ground temperature year round. ASHPs can also ice up.

Not true with well design modern ASHPs. Our ASHP still operates at well above CoP of 1 even on those days (actually quite few in the year) when it drops below zero. I have daily performance data over the past year that shows it. But anyway it's the weighted seasonal CoP that matters. You wouldn't judge a car's fuel efficiency by what mpg it delivers when going up a steep hill would you.

As for icing up, yes they can and would if not for de-icing cycles that the control systems build in depending on the ambients. The negative impact of those cycles is factored into the overall CoP efficiencies.

It's undeniable that GSHP will usually be significantly more efficient than air source. However they are typically much more expensive and disruptive to install for most users so will only be appropriate for a minority of use-cases.

Nigel

[Peter Cobbold]

4 hours ago, Bleednipple said:

Not true with well design modern ASHPs. Our ASHP still operates at well above CoP of 1 even on those days (actually quite few in the year) when it drops below zero. I have daily performance data over the past year that shows it. But anyway it's the weighted seasonal CoP that matters. You wouldn't judge a car's fuel efficiency by what mpg it delivers when going up a steep hill would you.

As for icing up, yes they can and would if not for de-icing cycles that the control systems build in depending on the ambients. The negative impact of those cycles is factored into the overall CoP efficiencies.

It's undeniable that GSHP will usually be significantly more efficient than air source. However they are typically much more expensive and disruptive to install for most users so will only be appropriate for a minority of use-cases.

Nigel

Personally we dont need any heating April to Sept so only the winter CoP matters. Water heating is needed year-round but can be done with a ashp built into the storage tank and an immersion heater. I expect that much-improved insulation plus electric fires used only when a room is in use will prove simpler, more easily maintained and repaired, and much cheaper solution, and one that can be rolled out nation-wide. The skills base is not available for everyone to go the heat pump route. We already have great difficulty finding a plumber.......................

My expectation is that the same pragmatic/practical approach to lowering CO2 within our skills base and domestic economics will apply to cars and other forms of transport. Flights rationed. Cars: hybrids for the well-off, for the rest of us: tight limit on size, max speeds, fuel rationing. The idea that we all drive ecars is pie in the sky, the grid infrastructure is lacking. Hence smart meters, smart-meters built into fridges and freezers...and heat pumps ?

Peter

 

[Peter Cobbold]

3 million smart meters still not working:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-67591320

That's 1 in 10 failing.

I wonder how many give false readings without actually failing ?

Peter

[monty]

On 9/14/2023 at 2:14 AM, Misfit said:

Whats bonkers is sitting back and letting it happen without making those taking decisions that will affect you, the value of your home, the financial costs to you, even your way of life, aware of your thoughts, not saying anything where it might count. How many of you have written to your MP, explaining your displeasure. Stand up or shut up would be my father’s words. Make you feeling known where it might have an effect. 

 

Always writing to my MP about various issues that affect all of us! Do you know what? Very little response!