waterpump wining

[Moliver]

Hi there, 

just realized some annoying wining at idle. Rough investigation indicated, that it may come from the waterpump. Slackened teh belt a little, however no change.

Watererpump bearing ? 

I remember having seen waterpumps with grease nipples however could not find one at mine.... (?)

Input welcome.

Thanks

Oliver

 

 

[Z320]

Hi Oliver,

put the belt fully off and hear again, please.

Could also be the dynamo. Spin both by hand and feel.

Ciao Marco 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Z320

[james christie]

These water pumps don’t like over tightened fan belts, the bearings suffer badly in a very short time. 
Don’t ask me how I know!

But try Marco’s suggestion first!

james

[David Arrowsmith]

I have a whining on my TR2, seems to be coming from the passenger seat area.

[RobH]

[RogerH]

55 minutes ago, David Arrowsmith said:

I have a whining on my TR2, seems to be coming from the passenger seat area.

Who has been taking the brave pills    

 

Roger

[Moliver]

I have learned to accepted the whining in the passengers bay and partly managed to mitigate the problem  installing the louder pipe kit...

However  I hate compromises in the engine compartment. Just checked and am quite sure it is the waterpump. There is some resistance when turing it by hand and the noise definitly comes from the pump. I am quite sure that I have applied too much tension on the belt   - lesson learned.

From the positive side, it is an opportunity to get this 5 wing improvement now...

 

Cheers

Oliver

[RogerH]

If the belt is slightly too loose then there will be the occasional squeal.

So nip the tension up a fraction to  remove the squeal and leave it there.

 

Roger  

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

2 hours ago, Moliver said:

I have learned to accepted the whining in the passengers bay and partly managed to mitigate the problem  installing the louder pipe kit...

However  I hate compromises in the engine compartment. Just checked and am quite sure it is the waterpump. There is some resistance when turing it by hand and the noise definitly comes from the pump. I am quite sure that I have applied too much tension on the belt   - lesson learned.

From the positive side, it is an opportunity to get this 5 wing improvement now...

 

Cheers

Oliver

I am not convinced by the quality of the 5 vane pump.   The vanes of the Lucas brand pumps I bought were 3 mm shorter than the original 4 vane item, giving a huge tip clearance that is likely to cause cavitation.   I fixed the issue but fitting a shim in the base of the pump housing.  That is not what I’d call uprated out of the box.

Edited August 27, 2023 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[Z320]

With a wider gap between impeller and housing the pump looses effectivity.

I remember the original impeller is 22 mm high and the gap is only 1 mm (+ the gasket).

A lot of „improvement“ is just bling-bling.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Z320

[Moliver]

This is the one I found at Limora. Will check the hight of the impeller and compare with the installed 4 vane version.

Thanks for the hint!

[Z320]

It would be a nice project to compare an 

original impeller, the Bastuck and Limora impeller.

But I see no need for a „better“ one.

[james christie]

Me neither!!

james

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

1 hour ago, Z320 said:

It would be a nice project to compare an 

original impeller, the Bastuck and Limora impeller.

But I see no need for a „better“ one.

I did that dimensionally and posted the outcome in this forum.   That condemned the 5 vane items compared to the 4 vane for axial clearance as standard.   The suppliers even refunded me the price of the 3 pumps I had bought as they considered the product was shite.

One of our forum members did it with an electric drill and a calibrated bucket to measure flow.
  Original won until a centre cone was created &  fitted in the middle of the impeller to guide the water flow into the impeller vanes and the impeller axial clearance was reduced to 0.010”.  Then the 5 blade thing was marginally better for flow.

 

[Z320]

Hi,

this pumps are simple centrifuges, throwing the water out from the center to a collector „snail house“.

The amount of flow mainly depends on the revs, diameter and height of the impeller.

All this 3 points a producer can only change with a new water pump housing.

Things can be different anyway because pumping in a circuit with low pressure resistance

(free flow out in a bucket) is different from the cooling circuit with resistance of a thermostat and radiator.

A reliable producer / distributor should be able to tell the difference with a data sheet,

for example at 1,000 revs (car idleing), which in my opionion is more urgend than at 3,000 revs.

But finally, my TR4A has no colling problems at all, only a few (different) points are worth to improve.

Ciao, Marco 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Z320

[Ian Vincent]

I had problems with a so called high capacity water pump because of the clearance between the housing and the impeller so I rebuilt my original pump and carefully set the impeller height to the recommended clearance.  Problem solved.

Rgds Ian

[Moliver]

Well, if I had an original pump installed, I may even think about just replacing the bearing. But I had to replace it a while ago as teh shaft has broken.

The after market  repalcement (4 wing) spare may not be the best master to compare to the 5 wing. Will find out the weekend and report.

But hey, it has been some 30 years since I finished my studies as a mechanical engineer deep diving into turbines and fluid machine calculations. But I think it does not even need such deep expertise to tell the difference between a water whorl and a pump. The 5 blade design ineed is an improvement to the 4 blade one by nature of its desig but it is indeed fully true, that an increased gap is not contributing to an efficiency incerase at all....

It indeed is true as well, that my aftermarket parts experiences (with or without "reincorcements" and "improvements") are multiple and not always the best.

Will keep ya'll posted and in parallel search ebay for an original parts for an overhaul (plan B ). 

Cheers

Oliver

 

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

My selection of 4 cyl TR water pumps.  

An original with brass impeller.  

The 5 vane Lucas repro that has vanes that are not deep enough and

The disaster 6 van pump with sloped vanes.   What were they thinking of?    Looks like a TR7 water pump impeller 

in one of the photos is the housing and the 1.5 mm shim to close up the clearance of the Lucas pump.

 

 

[Drewmotty]

I’m not sure if uprated pumps are any advantage. If the original pump provides the correct flow rate then increased flow won’t be an improvement. It will give less time for the heat to transfer into the coolant while it’s in the engine and less time for it to transfer out while in the radiator. Meanwhile the water pump will be taking more power to drive it and putting more strain on the drive belt. 
We need to be careful not to fix a problem which we don’t have. 

[Andy Moltu]

The standard water pump/coolant flow isn't the rate limiting step for the cooling system so uprating the flow isn't going so improve cooling in any meaningful way.

A lighter pump might interest the racers I guess.

If your pump is noisyI would rebuild or replace it.

[Z320]

Time is not involved in a heat exchanger.

[Kiwifrog]

I run a Massey fergerson tractor water pump on my 3a, easy to modify the pulley mounting, cheaper that the usual suspects, has a grease nipple and have not had any overheating problems in 40C here in the summertime. The rest of the cooling system is standard with a recored radiator with starting handle hole deleted.

 

cheers

Alan

[Z320]

16 hours ago, Drewmotty said:

I’m not sure if uprated pumps are any advantage. If the original pump provides the correct flow rate then increased flow won’t be an improvement. It will give less time for the heat to transfer into the coolant while it’s in the engine and less time for it to transfer out while in the radiator. Meanwhile the water pump will be taking more power to drive it and putting more strain on the drive belt. 
We need to be careful not to fix a problem which we don’t have. 

I try it in a few short words.

The thermostat rules the flow to the radiator, not the pump, until it is fully opened (data + about 10 Kelvin).

With the thermostat fully open and a stronger pump more coolant flow will lift the temperature of the coolant return flow from the rad.

This will make the radiator hotter on the coolant side and more powerful, giving more heat to the air.

On a hotter temperature level.

I fully agree with you: we should not create a not existing problem.

Ciao, Marco 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Z320
added the thermostat issue