Malbaby Posted July 11, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2023 6 hours ago, Tom Fremont said: Just remembered Bastuck: these look the bees knees https://shop.bastuck2.de/index.php?cat=10000&hg=11800 Thanks Tom...I wonder about the quality, as I have had another Bastuck item that was not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Malbaby Posted July 11, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2023 2 hours ago, john.r.davies said: Clearly I have to repeat, 'balancing' while an essential part of an engine build, does not test the function of the pulley damper against Torsion vibration in a running engine! John Thanks John...can you recommend a supplier. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted July 12, 2023 Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 Yes. Me. AFAIK I have the only damper test set up in the UK. "Give me your tired, your poor, scrambled dampers yearning to spin free, Send these, the hopeless, engine-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" Contact me by PM with your postal address and I'll send you mine. After testing I'll return it with a readout of it's performance, like this: John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PodOne Posted July 12, 2023 Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 8 hours ago, john.r.davies said: Yes. Me. AFAIK I have the only damper test set up in the UK. "Give me your tired, your poor, scrambled dampers yearning to spin free, Send these, the hopeless, engine-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" Contact me by PM with your postal address and I'll send you mine. After testing I'll return it with a readout of it's performance, like this: John Hi John so does the graph represent a good damper performance? If so what does a bad one look like? Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted July 12, 2023 Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 John, It has been said that on the 4 cylinder engine the rubber mounted 4 blade engine fan attached to the cast iron crank extension provides some harmonic balancing. Is this possible or folk lore? Peter W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted July 12, 2023 Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 Andy, Much more vibration at various frequencies, esp. at high rev rates: Peter said "It has been said that on the 4 cylinder engine the rubber mounted 4 blade engine fan attached to the cast iron crank extension provides some harmonic balancing. Is this possible or folk lore?" Triumph didn't consider that torsion vibration was a problem, before the longer six cylinder engine. This was accepted theory and practice at the time and other manufacturers did the same. I can't say if the fan on earlier 4s had any effect, as I don't own one, but I have developed 'bolt-on' brackets to allow me to attach the sensors to such an engine, temporarily, and have been seeking a willing volunteer! But no takers! I can assure anyone interested that anything I fitted to your TR3/4 would be reversible. A car that retained the mechanical fan would be best, so that tests could be done with and without it. I would hope that a single day would be enough, most of the time being consumed by fitting the sensors and testing them. The actual measurements take a few minutes. You are quite right, Peter, this controversy has thrived on complete lack of information, and I would hope that my technique could show definitely if the fan was a damper or not! John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted July 17, 2023 Report Share Posted July 17, 2023 Thank you for the reply John. My own car has no mechanical fan fitted and there is no way to refit one as I have machine the fan mounting flange off the extension to allow the electric fan to be fitted. Yes I agree it would be nice to discover if the metal fan had any damping effect. That simple test could reinforce or scotch any of the fables we have told each other for so many years. All we need to find is a standard 4 cyl TR (easiest to do would be TR4/4A because of access) with a mechanical fan fitted that is near you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Moltu Posted July 17, 2023 Report Share Posted July 17, 2023 I would think that any damping effect (if any at all) of the metal fan would be outweighed by the imbalance of the metal blades! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted July 17, 2023 Report Share Posted July 17, 2023 (edited) Hi John, I also asked for volunteers for some technical issues and never got an offer. Very likely no finding is better than a negative one….? I would be very pleased to give you my TR4A, and I would also fit back the old cast iron extension and metal fan! Also to test my lightweight extension and BMW fan would be very interesting for me. But hundreds of miles are between us! Ciao, Marco Edited July 17, 2023 by Z320 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted July 17, 2023 Report Share Posted July 17, 2023 Any assembly like the original fan will have damping effects (anti-resonances) at some frequencies but resonances at others, as all mechanical structures do. The important thing is whether the vibration 'modes' occur at the same frequencies as the crankshaft torsional resonances in which case they might damp (good) or amplify (bad) the effect. Just testing the damper in isolation only tells you how it performs in comparison against a known 'good one' but since no such animal exists for the four-pot engine there is nothing to benchmark against. To understand what is really going on, requires a 'modal survey' of the complete crank and damper assembly when in the engine. This is a complicated and expensive process requiring very specialised test equipment (which was was not available when the TR engine was designed.) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted July 17, 2023 Report Share Posted July 17, 2023 RobH, Completely agree with you! That is why I developed my torsion vibration test kit on a six cylinder engine rig, so that dampers could be tested against one another in a real world situation. The testing system can be transferred, temporarily, to a TR3/4 engine by attaching suitable bracketry. Then, I expect to be able to measure the vibration present with and without the fan extension. So, no need for a mythical 'four cylinder damper' but a direct measurement of the effect of the mechanical fan. This is neither expensive nor complicated, but indeed was impossible when those engines were designed. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Malbaby Posted July 24, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2023 (edited) On 7/5/2023 at 5:14 PM, RobH said: Under the sale of goods legislation a customer can return faulty goods up to 6 years after purchase. If you can prove it was faulty when sold, The seller must repair, replace it. Quote: "You must repair or replace an item if a customer returns it within 6 months - unless you can prove it was not faulty when they bought it. You can ask a customer to prove an item was faulty when they bought it if they ask for a repair or replacement after 6 months. Customers have up to 6 years to make a claim for an item they’ve bought from you (5 years in Scotland)." https://www.gov.uk/accepting-returns-and-giving-refunds On 7/5/2023 at 5:14 PM, RobH said: I am not getting anywhere with Rimmers, even after the above suggestion regarding "returns/refunds". Does anyone have an email address for the manager of Rimmers? Edited July 24, 2023 by Malbaby Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard71 Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 A possible solution for this. Have a browse on eBay.com (U.S.) and find yourself a used crankshaft damper for a TR5/6, there's usually a few available at any given time. Purchase the one that may take your fancy for £20-30, have the seller ship it to Damper Dudes in California for a rebuild, once complete after only a couple of days they'll ship it to your home address. Total cost around £170. (what does the Rimmers offering cost?). I've done this twice, John R. Davies tested one of these rebuilt dampers on his test rig and it passed with flying colours. Usual disclaimers. Richard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted July 28, 2023 Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 8 hours ago, Richard71 said: A possible solution for this. Have a browse on eBay.com (U.S.) and find yourself a used crankshaft damper for a TR5/6, there's usually a few available at any given time. Purchase the one that may take your fancy for £20-30, have the seller ship it to Damper Dudes in California for a rebuild, once complete after only a couple of days they'll ship it to your home address. Total cost around £170. (what does the Rimmers offering cost?). I've done this twice, John R. Davies tested one of these rebuilt dampers on his test rig and it passed with flying colours. Usual disclaimers. Richard. Good link thank you. https://www.damperdudes.net/harmonic-balancers/triumph/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Malbaby Posted July 28, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2023 13 hours ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said: Good link thank you. https://www.damperdudes.net/harmonic-balancers/triumph/ Thanks guys for the link to Damper Dudes....$243 aussie for Rimmers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted July 29, 2023 Report Share Posted July 29, 2023 Hi John, you still have no 4 cylinder TR owner as a volunteer to make the tests? Are they all afraid about possibly bad news? Ciao, Marco Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted October 7, 2023 Report Share Posted October 7, 2023 Hi John, allow me to ask, did a 4 cylinder TR driver give you his car to measure? I would be very pleased to know the results. Ciao, Marco Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytr5 Posted October 7, 2023 Report Share Posted October 7, 2023 This is an offer from John that should be seriously taken up. Come on guys it is going to be so worth it. Regards Harry Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted October 9, 2023 Report Share Posted October 9, 2023 My thanks to those who have faith in me! I have a kind volunteer, but they are 200+ miles from me, and I'm sure that there are TR4s that live closer, the North. I've been encouraged to do the testing at Malvern, where any volunteer and I might rendezvous. That might be an alternative venue! John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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