Camshaft

[iani]

25 minutes ago, TRTOM2498PI said:

Hi Harry,

I think you could make the Newman PH5 cam work with your EFI here ?

A friend of mine has recently fitted a Newman PH3, but with webers and a 123 tune, and it drives beautifully, & a hell of a lot faster than his PH2 in his TR6, which feels tame in comparison ?

With an ECU/management system, it could be fine tuned even further.  If there is power to be found, the Emerald ECU will find it !

 

Cheers.

That will be me then, however, the PH3 died as a result of a dirty build, I am now running a Tony Lindsey-Dean "3R" cam, it's a 300 degree cam however so not vastly different to the PH3. I had originally opted for the PH2 in my TR6 as I'd read Newman's comments on their cams, it turned out to be much tamer than I'd expected however, hence going for the PH3 on the next build. For the 1k or so miles that I ran it, I have to say that the PH3 was noticeably quicker, however, it still retained complete tractability, I'd have been comfortable driving around a carpark all day with it. You need to get that PH5 installed Tom, I'm very interested to see how it behaves, Newman told me it was not for a road car, let's see.

[TRTOM2498PI]

29 minutes ago, iani said:

That will be me then, however, the PH3 died as a result of a dirty build, I am now running a Tony Lindsey-Dean "3R" cam, it's a 300 degree cam however so not vastly different to the PH3. I had originally opted for the PH2 in my TR6 as I'd read Newman's comments on their cams, it turned out to be much tamer than I'd expected however, hence going for the PH3 on the next build. For the 1k or so miles that I ran it, I have to say that the PH3 was noticeably quicker, however, it still retained complete tractability, I'd have been comfortable driving around a carpark all day with it. You need to get that PH5 installed Tom, I'm very interested to see how it behaves, Newman told me it was not for a road car, let's see.

Newman say this, but I have never seen a PH5 tried with EFI.  I know of a car using a PH5 on webers (race car), with success. I think with EFI, and the famous TLE exhaust manifold, appropriate cylinder head & CR, could be quite entertaining.  I do like to 'push the envelope'.

 

Cheers.

Edited January 19, 2023 by TRTOM2498PI

[Kenrow]

John, after reading all the comments did you decide which cam was for you?

[John L]

Ken,  I have decided to go for the Piper TR6 2TY, will pick it up next week, will advise back once its been fitted and tried, give me a couple of weeks!

John

[harrytr5]

I am all for low down torque and the further you go up in the RPM to make a cam work is not for me .It is the drivability at low to medium RPM and anything after that is a bonus. I can make mine fly if I really push it but how many times can you do that before you get pulled. I have done 25 laps around Spa (not at the same time) and on track days flat out, very rewarding but in real terms we do not drive like that. Spa at the time allowed this unlike the parade laps in Le Mans(Boring and a rip off).

Regards Harry

[TRTOM2498PI]

The Newman (hybrid cam)- PH2/PH3 will provide a beautiful idle (smoother than a CP 150 cam), & offer complete flexibility, ie: 4th gear @ 1000rpm and it will pull.  I always recall a time I took Malcolm from Prestige Injection out in my TR6, after he calibrated a MU, and fitted X6 new injectors at his place, back in summer 2011 on the new engine. He was amazed at how it behaved on the road and how it accelerated in comparison to hundreds of other cars he had set-up over many decades, many modified, where they had gone OTT.

 

Cheers.

[Andy Moltu]

I still wonder about why anyone gives a monkeys about lumpy idle? Lumpy idle or smooth idle are simply descriptions of the engine in its passive state.

What matters is how it behaves throughout their he rev range at the full range of throttle opening from light to full.

[TRTOM2498PI]

4 hours ago, Andy Moltu said:

I still wonder about why anyone gives a monkeys about lumpy idle? Lumpy idle or smooth idle are simply descriptions of the engine in its passive state.

What matters is how it behaves throughout their he rev range at the full range of throttle opening from light to full.

I am not too bothered about idle characteristics either, as its how it behaves in the real world that counts. The PH2/3 is about having your cake, & eating it.

[John L]

I'm in need of some further advise about the timing of my new cam please.

Its a Piper 2TY,  32/72/72/32   I have set the crank at TDC and turned the cam to give 0.080" lift on #1 inlet, this dimension also matches the full lift of the inlet valve at 110 degrees as per the Pipers spec sheet.  Happy with that.

Now I cannot get the metering unit to be just opening at TDC, I can only think that the gears are cut at perhaps a different position, its a CP engine,  but surely I shouldnt have to set it as a CR surely?

Any help would be much appreciated please.

John

[PodOne]

1 hour ago, John L said:

Now I cannot get the metering unit to be just opening at TDC, I can only think that the gears are cut at perhaps a different position, its a CP engine,  but surely I shouldnt have to set it as a CR surely?

Hi John

If its any consolation I couldn't get the port to be just opening at TDC with a std cam as per the Brown Book on my UK 1969 PI only a full hole no matter how hard I tried. It was confirmed by experienced fellow formites that this was acceptable so I have gone with it. Still to start the motor.

Andy 

[Andy Moltu]

Anywhere between just opening to a full hole is fine. (crescent moon to full moon)

A closing hole is not ideal.

[John L]

I did find this document, that says it can be a closed, page 37,  Frame 35, with a hole open at TDC  the injection will have started well before TDC, so I have now plumped for the closed position it opens about 10-15 degress ATDC, at least the piston is going down and should be sucking, I will see how it goes, the CR engines were after TDC as well, was that to help for the emissions or the camshaft, would anybody know?

John

Triumph Service Training Notes TR6, TR5, 2.5 Lucas Petrol Injection.pdf

[Andy Moltu]

You should be able to get it into the correct alignment. 

It’s fiddly “guess work” in that you just have to keep lifting it off, move the gear a bit and try again. It’s very easy to turn it too much and go 2 teeth on the gear or not enough and be back where you started!

In the end it isn’t as critical as one might think.

At higher revs it injects almost continuously. Perhaps a bit less efficiently at low revs.

[Richard71]

On 2/2/2023 at 6:43 PM, John L said:

I'm in need of some further advise about the timing of my new cam please.

Its a Piper 2TY,  32/72/72/32   I have set the crank at TDC and turned the cam to give 0.080" lift on #1 inlet, this dimension also matches the full lift of the inlet valve at 110 degrees as per the Pipers spec sheet.  Happy with that.

Now I cannot get the metering unit to be just opening at TDC, I can only think that the gears are cut at perhaps a different position, its a CP engine,  but surely I shouldnt have to set it as a CR surely?

Any help would be much appreciated please.

John

Hi John,

0.080" at TDC, were you timing the cam using the "equal lift on overlap" method? That would give 0.080" lift on the exhaust also, if thats the case it'll save me a bit of time when I get around to fitting my camshaft.

Richard.

[TonyC]

Interesting to see that the TR6 2TY camshaft is a favourable choice with many of you on the forum. I have just fitted the 2TY camshaft during my engine rebuild.  I purchased mine from TR Enterprises and it came complete with followers and springs.  The engineering company servicing my cylinder head have alerted me to the weak (TR Enterprises) valve springs (35lbs @ 32mm compression Vs 75lbs @ 32mm compression on the old ones). TR Enterprises say this is the spring they recommend,  However as has already been established the TR Enterprises cam is made by Piper and they say that valve springs they would supply are more in line with the 75lbs figure. Has anyone experienced this anomoly, or can anyone confirm the correct springs to use with this cam. The last thing I want is valve bounce, but equally the reason for my rebuild was due to camshaft failure, where the lobes on numerous cams were worn almost circular - maybe due to high valve spring rates exacerbated by the poor lubrication system

Many thanks.

TonyC

 

[Andy Moltu]

On 2/8/2023 at 12:39 PM, Richard71 said:

Hi John,

0.080" at TDC, were you timing the cam using the "equal lift on overlap" method? That would give 0.080" lift on the exhaust also, if thats the case it'll save me a bit of time when I get around to fitting my camshaft.

Richard.

No it sounds like the method used in to have the No1 inlet valve maximally open at 110 degrees atdc. It is an alternative way of timing a cam.  Personally I prefer it so long as the setting is known) The equal lift on overlap is fine, but some cams work better slightly advanced (or retarded) which is where the suppliers data is followed. 9 times out of 10 you find the cam timing is identical with both methods but just occasionally the manufacturer has identified better performance with deviation from the standard.

[astontr6]

On 2/21/2023 at 4:45 PM, TonyC said:

Interesting to see that the TR6 2TY camshaft is a favourable choice with many of you on the forum. I have just fitted the 2TY camshaft during my engine rebuild.  I purchased mine from TR Enterprises and it came complete with followers and springs.  The engineering company servicing my cylinder head have alerted me to the weak (TR Enterprises) valve springs (35lbs @ 32mm compression Vs 75lbs @ 32mm compression on the old ones). TR Enterprises say this is the spring they recommend,  However as has already been established the TR Enterprises cam is made by Piper and they say that valve springs they would supply are more in line with the 75lbs figure. Has anyone experienced this anomoly, or can anyone confirm the correct springs to use with this cam. The last thing I want is valve bounce, but equally the reason for my rebuild was due to camshaft failure, where the lobes on numerous cams were worn almost circular - maybe due to high valve spring rates exacerbated by the poor lubrication system

Many thanks.

TonyC

 

On your old cam I would suspect poor heat treatment or lack of it? Was it an original OEM cam or a substitute re-grind from the usual suspects. As they has had a bad reputation for no re-heat treatment after re-grinding off the hardness layer. They were good for round lobes!!!

Bruce.

[multipletriumphsinner]

Our experience seems to be at odds with some of the advice given on here regarding regrinding factory cams. For the last thirty odd years we have been having Spitfire cams reground at the rate of approximately 25 every 8-10 weeks, and selling them on to our customers. We take the Spitfire 1500 cam, and have it ground to Spitfire MKIII profile, its a well known upgrade in the small chassis world. I know its not 6 cyl, but its contemporary, and presumably made from the same material, and probably by the same original company. 

I that thirty odd years I have only had one customer report an issue with premature wear, and it turns out I suspect that wasn't a factory cam that had been re profiled, but an aftermarket cam that slipped through our system.

So on the conservative side we have sold over 2,000 reground cams over the thirty odd years, with one reported issue. That's not bad.

[TRTOM2498PI]

6 minutes ago, multipletriumphsinner said:

Our experience seems to be at odds with some of the advice given on here regarding regrinding factory cams. For the last thirty odd years we have been having Spitfire cams reground at the rate of approximately 25 every 8-10 weeks, and selling them on to our customers. We take the Spitfire 1500 cam, and have it ground to Spitfire MKIII profile, its a well known upgrade in the small chassis world. I know its not 6 cyl, but its contemporary, and presumably made from the same material, and probably by the same original company. 

I that thirty odd years I have only had one customer report an issue with premature wear, and it turns out I suspect that wasn't a factory cam that had been re profiled, but an aftermarket cam that slipped through our system.

So on the conservative side we have sold over 2,000 reground cams over the thirty odd years, with one reported issue. That's not bad.

That is interesting, unless the case hardening has been reapplied after being reground ?

That said, most of these cars do around 200 miles a year (OK, maybe a few more), so have probably not been ran in, & if they have done beyond that, seldom used in anger ?

See you soon.

 

Pip pip.

 

[astontr6]

28 minutes ago, multipletriumphsinner said:

Our experience seems to be at odds with some of the advice given on here regarding regrinding factory cams. For the last thirty odd years we have been having Spitfire cams reground at the rate of approximately 25 every 8-10 weeks, and selling them on to our customers. We take the Spitfire 1500 cam, and have it ground to Spitfire MKIII profile, its a well known upgrade in the small chassis world. I know its not 6 cyl, but its contemporary, and presumably made from the same material, and probably by the same original company. 

I that thirty odd years I have only had one customer report an issue with premature wear, and it turns out I suspect that wasn't a factory cam that had been re profiled, but an aftermarket cam that slipped through our system.

So on the conservative side we have sold over 2,000 reground cams over the thirty odd years, with one reported issue. That's not bad.

You have been lucky then as Moss found themselves in court and had to pay a substantial sum in compensation, needless to say they don't do re-grinds anymore! New blanks only!

Bruce.

[multipletriumphsinner]

24 minutes ago, TRTOM2498PI said:

That is interesting, unless the case hardening has been reapplied after being reground ?

That said, most of these cars do around 200 miles a year (OK, maybe a few more), so have probably not been ran in, & if they have done beyond that, seldom used in anger ?

See you soon.

 

Pip pip.

 

No to the hardening, I asked once, and was told it wasn't necessary (has as proven to be the case).

200 miles a year!  The one in my Courier Van does very nearly that in a typical week!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aside from that you will find these cams in some well used club cars that do mucho miles, including RBRR's, and 10 Countries, etc, etc.

 

[multipletriumphsinner]

8 minutes ago, astontr6 said:

You have been lucky then as Moss found themselves in court and had to pay a substantial sum in compensation, needless to say they don't do re-grinds anymore! New blanks only!

Bruce.

Yes I read that before I commented (edit!), I can only speak from experience.

Edited March 1, 2023 by multipletriumphsinner

[multipletriumphsinner]

9 minutes ago, multipletriumphsinner said:

No to the hardening, I asked once, and was told it wasn't necessary (has as proven to be the case).

200 miles a year!  The one in my Courier Van does very nearly that in a typical week!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aside from that you will find these cams in some well used club cars that do mucho miles, including RBRR's, and 10 Countries, etc, etc.

 

Quoting myself here. Thinking about it I built the Courier engine over twenty years ago, and its done three RBRR's, and a good majority of my daily driving in that time on that cam.