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Suspension/Frame Damage


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I said in another thread that I had discovered damage and needed to address it.  Here are some photos showing the bent control arms, broken tower brace, re-welded askew fulcrum pin mount, spring helpers inserted in the spring coil and the general disposition of the RH side with LH side shown for comparison.  Assessing which is easier, to refurbish a donor frame I have that has different rack mounts and some rust damage or to try to repair and use this one.

Thoughts, suggestions and your good counsel appreciated.

 

brace driver.jpg

driver.jpg

pass.jpg

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All the frame measurements are in the workshop manual and pieces like the turret supports are available and I have had to deal with bent or twisted towers before now so it probably comes down to 1. How rotten the rest of the chassis is and 2. How confident/skilled you are to be able to repair it correctly. If you know anyone with a commercial frame repair jig that would make life easier. The one thing that sometimes gets missed is when the chassis gets a fairly straight on hit on the front of one side then there can be whats called a "Lozenge" effect where one complete side rail gets pushed backwards. Careful measurement will determine this.

Stuart.

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Looks as though could be very problematic and that MIG welding is definitely up there.

As Stuart says something bad is going on there with the broken brace etc.

CTM Engineering to a rejig/ repair service or new chassis. Might be best to cut a long story short and seek their advice first 

https://ctmengineering.co.uk/

Kevin

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Thank you for the replies. Wish CTM was near me.  I may look for a US based frame shop after I measure everything. 

I am going to finish my structural body work to get it stable and brace up the cockpit.  I will then separate the body from frame and measure and remeasure and do some testing to decide if it is easier to fix original frame, repair the rot in my donor, which I got cheap (and transfer the rack mounts to it), or go to a plan C and seek a better frame from somewhere.  Measuring both frames carefully and cutting into the rot and probing for more in my donor will tell all I think.  Until the frame is free and I measure everything t is a guess.  It would be great if the original frame is at the core straight and just have to get all new suspension parts.  I have no doubt I can put it back and make it work if either frame I have is not warped badly or so rotted that it can't be fixed.  I just don't want the unexpected $2,000 expense for a frame.  My hope is that between the donor and original frame I have one good one.  Again, measuring both and testing the soundness of the donor steel will tell the tale I think.   

When you are going through hell, keep going!  I am not giving up.

 

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There used to be a company in the US that did frames and supplied sections too but they seem to have disappeared now https://www.facebook.com/Ratco-Triumph-Frames-and-Performance-Upgrades-156623154461909/

I dont know what you could get from Moss motors or TRF in the way of frame sections now.

Stuart.

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44 minutes ago, stuart said:

There used to be a company in the US that did frames and supplied sections too but they seem to have disappeared now https://www.facebook.com/Ratco-Triumph-Frames-and-Performance-Upgrades-156623154461909/

I dont know what you could get from Moss motors or TRF in the way of frame sections now.

Stuart.

The owner is retired but still operating at a slower pace. Lead time for new chassis is 2 years. Don't know about sections but those frames are boxed frames totally different than the original.

Edited by Geko
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A lot of work there by the looks of things. If it were me, I would remove suspension arms, spring, hub etc and get back to the chassis so you can see better what is going on there. It looks like the box sections of the chassis frame that the bottom suspension arms connect to is rotten. I would wait until you remove the body and can see the whole of the chassis. If this is the state of the front end then who knows what the back will be like. You will then be able to measure up easier and better decide whether you can repair it or go for a different frame.

Good luck on this one

Keith

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3 hours ago, stuart said:

There used to be a company in the US that did frames and supplied sections too but they seem to have disappeared now https://www.facebook.com/Ratco-Triumph-Frames-and-Performance-Upgrades-156623154461909/

I dont know what you could get from Moss motors or TRF in the way of frame sections now.

Stuart.

https://www.rat-co.com/

Their new frames are not cheap, they do not show any frame sections from what I saw at a quick glance

Simon

 

Edited by kiwican
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The frame on the car has no rot.  I have been pretty well over it with a chipping hammer while up on a lift.  The car was hit in the left front sometime in the past and was repaired and driven for some time after.  
 

The donor frame I bought for $200 has some rot.

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10 hours ago, RMP NC said:

The frame on the car has no rot.  I have been pretty well over it with a chipping hammer while up on a lift.  The car was hit in the left front sometime in the past and was repaired and driven for some time after.  
 

The donor frame I bought for $200 has some rot.

Then you at least have some sections you could use in this one then, problem you might find though is the turret support bars are often rotten at the bottom where they meet the frame though not that difficult to repair.

Stuart.

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7 hours ago, stuart said:

Then you at least have some sections you could use in this one then, problem you might find though is the turret support bars are often rotten at the bottom where they meet the frame though not that difficult to repair.

Stuart.

Advice from CTM if you have a good chassis front end is to cut just behind the "Y" but before the bend (red lines) and grind off the welding (green lines) where the sections are staggered (not sure if it's the right word - I mean overlapping). It needs to be staggered when welding back !

IMG_4568.jpg

IMG_4517.jpg

Edited by Geko
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That may work.  The rot in donor starts just back of the suggested cuts.  Going to be interesting as I get into the measurements.

Such great advice guys.  You’ve all given me some great things to think about.  Keep it coming!

Edited by RMP NC
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Hi RMP, (A name would be nice)

A competent DIY'er i.e. welder, can repair a chassis at home, it needs to be correct but they  are simple enough stuctures, albeit the TR4A slighty more complex than the very simple Tr4.

You have everything you need diamensions wise in the workshop manual, but to add to that.

A chassis needs checked three ways,

For lozenging, where it has been hit on a corner, resulting in it being back on one side reletive to the other. checked with comparing and confirming diagonal measurements, It is critical, that your chassis measures the same, side to side when repaired.

For Twist. whereby it is twisted, caused by either a substantial 'Upwards' strike, or more likely by age related weakness, after being left badly supported during some work far a long time, or the chassis metalwork is simply a lot less than originally made, - corrosion. Check twist with a spring balance

....and three

Sag, where the chassis drops in the middle relative to the ends, again down to weakness due to age, -checked with some equal size wooden battens laid at right angles to the chassis longditudanal axis and checked with a taught line front to back.

I THINK, I am correct in saying that the TR chassis is flat from front to rear axle area, before having an angle, so this is simple enough.

Nos 2 and 3 in the above are likely, if found, to be more serious than No 1, because they point to thinner than new metal, and you need to be very sure you can remedy that!

If I were you, I'd have a serious look at both chassis on the flat when completly bare, do your checks and then make your call.

John.

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Russell Pennington is my name.

Thank for your advice.  One thing I know that might tell you something is that the door gap on side opposite the hit is wider at the B pillar at top than bottom by .5-.7 inches. Before noticing the hit I was looking for a bend upward in the middle on that side but maybe that gives a hint of how the hit affected the frame?

I will be evaluating the frames and I did believe I could, with the tools and knowledge I have effect a repair that would work.  Until I do the evaluation that part is all open. The donor frame sits flat to me although I’ve not leveled it on a table or jig yet but will get it set with a reference level so I can measure it soon.  Original frame will be a next step as it is still on car.

I am not a pro but have done some past frame repair on US cars and seen it when I was younger be done by my elders, long gone now.  My grandfather was a master welder and built Liberty ships for Bethlehem Steel in Baltimore Md during WWII.  Now he could weld and work with metal.  We still occasionally encounter an older person who tells us about some interesting trick he did to repair some metal structure for them.  He built metal bridges and such after the war.  Lived to be 101.

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13 minutes ago, RMP NC said:

Russell Pennington is my name.

Thank for your advice.  One thing I know that might tell you something is that the door gap on side opposite the hit is wider at the B pillar at top than bottom by .5-.7 inches. Before noticing the hit I was looking for a bend upward in the middle on that side but maybe that gives a hint of how the hit affected the frame?

I will be evaluating the frames and I did believe I could, with the tools and knowledge I have effect a repair that would work.  Until I do the evaluation that part is all open. The donor frame sits flat to me although I’ve not leveled it on a table or jig yet but will get it set with a reference level so I can measure it soon.  Original frame will be a next step as it is still on car.

I am not a pro but have done some past frame repair on US cars and seen it when I was younger be done by my elders, long gone now.  My grandfather was a master welder and built Liberty ships for Bethlehem Steel in Baltimore Md during WWII.  Now he could weld and work with metal.  We still occasionally encounter an older person who tells us about some interesting trick he did to repair some metal structure for them.  He built metal bridges and such after the war.  Lived to be 101.

The widening gap on the opposite side "B" post may indicate some sag on the rear of the chassis that side though some hits on chassis cars can travel along and you find damage a long way back from the original area that took the hit, for example  a TR6 i restored a few years ago had obviously had a hit in the front at some time and when I took the body off there was two creases in the rear wheel arch and a longitudinal twist on the chassis that someone had tried to correct the ride height with two different height front springs!

Stuart

 

Tonys TR6 021.jpg

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20 hours ago, Geko said:

Advice from CTM if you have a good chassis front end is to cut just behind the "Y" but before the bend (red lines) and grind off the welding (green lines) where the sections are staggered (not sure if it's the right word - I mean overlapping). It needs to be staggered when welding back !

IMG_4568.jpg

IMG_4517.jpg

My bad on this one, you have a 4 not a 4A IRS so different chassis

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On 10/20/2020 at 1:38 PM, Geko said:

Advice from CTM if you have a good chassis front end is to cut just behind the "Y" but before the bend (red lines) and grind off the welding (green lines) where the sections are staggered (not sure if it's the right word - I mean overlapping). It needs to be staggered when welding back !

IMG_4568.jpg

IMG_4517.jpg

Whenever I have seen two chassis halves joined, I agree with the separation point shown green, but the outer chassis rail has always been cut/joined further back than the red line shown above. If the cut is in the middle of the parallel side rails( ie approx 300mm further back), the joint can be properly sleeved which in my view is fairly essential -  if the two halves are sleeved, then you have to have a parallel joint on both sides so the two halves can be slid together at the same time - if the cuts were to be as shown in red above, they would have to be butt welded joints only which would worry me from a safety perspective, however good the weld was.

Maybe I am being overcautious, but it's not an area I would want to take any risks in.

Cheers Rich

 

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