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"...optimised..."

...yeh....for the blenders' bottom line? And how often is the 'optimum' changed.

 

No specification of Zn ppm ...I shall avoid.

 

Nice tins though.

 

Peter

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I asked a Duckhams tech rep at the launch at the NEC what the elemental Zinc content was...he went all spikey, and when asked why didn't they quote the amount rather than say "optimised" suddenly became engaged with another customer. Filled me full of confidence.

 

Mick Richards

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I asked a Duckhams tech rep at the launch at the NEC what the elemental Zinc content was...he went all spikey, and when asked why didn't they quote the amount rather than say "optimised" suddenly became engaged with another customer. Filled me full of confidence.

 

Mick Richards

He was well trained then, in obfuscating the issue.

 

I emailed the ed of Prac Classics explaining the ppm issue.

No reply.

Cash from oil adverts more a priority?

 

Wonder what the ed of TRA woudl say to an article?

Wayne?

 

Peter

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He was well trained then, in obfuscating the issue.

 

I emailed the ed of Prac Classics explaining the ppm issue.

No reply.

Cash from oil adverts more a priority?

 

Wonder what the ed of TRA woudl say to an article?

Wayne?

 

Peter

Get real,so no mags,no shows etc.

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I see that Duckhams is now being offered online . . . .

 

https://www.duckhams.com/

 

At £30/gallon (£36 delivered) not exactly a budget product . . . . and I could buy 10lts of Silkolube, for example, for the same money.

 

Surely to goodness there is nothing unduly complex or costly about blending a straightforward copy of an oil formulation of decades ago ?

 

But hey, if they can make a healthy profit on a twentieth century reputation, good luck to them.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

 

.....and you don't even get 5 litres. :o I think there are better and cheaper alternatives!

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Hi,

 

I asked Millers and had some friendly answers, but I kept on insisting for specific relative masses of Zn and / or P .

 

In the last email I was told:

 

" Yes the ZDDP Molecule consists of Zinc and Phosphorus with the Phosphorus part giving the protective function and providing a phosphate coating on the engine components, therefore the quoted PPM ( Parts PerMillion ) figure of ZDDP does determine the amount of protection.

Our Classic Engine Oils have sufficient ZDDP to protect each engine.

If the ZDDP for example 1100 ppm then the % mass is 0.110 of the complete oil."

 

Patrick

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Hi,

 

I asked Millers and had some friendly answers, but I kept on insisting for specific relative masses of Zn and / or P .

 

In the last email I was told:

 

" Yes the ZDDP Molecule consists of Zinc and Phosphorus with the Phosphorus part giving the protective function and providing a phosphate coating on the engine components, therefore the quoted PPM ( Parts PerMillion ) figure of ZDDP does determine the amount of protection.

 

Our Classic Engine Oils have sufficient ZDDP to protect each engine.

 

If the ZDDP for example 1100 ppm then the % mass is 0.110 of the complete oil."

 

Patrick

Patrick,

So Millers are also using "ppm ZDDP" and not the correct way of expressing ZDDP level as " ppm Zn as ZDDP".

That trick allows them to give a nice big number but not much actual ZDDP.

Thus the last line you quote: If the ZDDP for example 1100 ppm then the % mass is 0.110 of the complete oil."

means that there truly is 1000ppm ZDDP but only maybe 100ppm "Zinc as ZDDP"

The oil is very low in ZDDP.

 

Looking at it the other way about. A good oil with "1200ppm Zn as ZDDP"

would be described as having 12,000 ppm ZDDP , correctly. Because Zn is about 10% of the whole molecule mass.

 

Since many classic oil sellers seem to have decided upon the same trick to fool us, the safest way is to only buy oil that states "ppm Zinc as ZDDP" and the number should be around 1200-1500.

 

We will not be duped !

I dont know if ZDDP is expensive but most sellers appear to have reduced the content by about 10-fold an hoped we would not notice.

 

Peter

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Seems like we are chasing our own tails Peter, some owners are confused to the extent that they now grasp ANY mention of ZDDP just grateful to get information...ANY information from oil companies.

As we said earlier in this thread if ZDDP is important to you (it is for me) then buy oils from manufacturers who publicly state the numbers in the correct way for example:

 

post-6602-0-41893200-1513204143_thumb.jpg

 

NOTE ! Do not confuse the firm Classic Oils Ltd with the reference in post 81 of Classic Engine Oils offered by the other firm.

 

Seems simple enough to me, and let me assure you ANY firm that wishes to be openhanded and clear in it's dealings with the public should advertise their products in the same way. Otherwise it leaves the man in the street to make their own conclusions why these manufacturers seem unable or unwilling to specify their oil in this manner, why would they NOT want you to know the numbers in the oil ? HHHmmmm.

 

Mick Richards

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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Edit: This post was written in parallel to Mick's post...Nr 83

 

Peter,

 

so at the end there is no classic oil manufacturer who states correct mass of ZN / P (not the complete molecule), appart Penrite -Down-under.

The European Penrite spec does not state ppm either does it.

 

I found Rektol in D, who make classic oils in many different viscosities.

https://www.rektol-klassik.de/index.php?language=en

 

When I asked them about Zn and P they came up with a table where the differet oil specs vary between 1000 and 1200 ppm in Zn and P mass

 

And we ended up in a discussion, where it turned out, that viscosity of an oil is very important and that it is difficult to say, which was the right viscosity for a modified engine, without oil cooler and without knowledge about the oil temperature - which is the case for my TR6.

So I will monitor the oil temp. next season with an infrared gun on the black oil-pan, since i don't have a bung in the oil pan to put in a sender.

 

Patrick

Edited by roulli
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Seems like we are chasing our own tails Peter, some owners are confused to the extent that they now grasp ANY mention of ZDDP just grateful to get information...ANY information from oil companies.

As we said earlier in this thread if ZDDP is important to you (it is for me) then buy oils from manufacturers who publicly state the numbers in the correct way for example:

 

attachicon.gifClassic_Oils__Heritage_20w50_LW11.jpg

 

NOTE ! Do not confuse the firm Classic Oils Ltd with the reference in post 81 of Classic Engine Oils offered by the other firm.

 

Seems simple enough to me, and let me assure you ANY firm that wishes to be openhanded and clear in it's dealings with the public should advertise their products in the same way. Otherwise it leaves the man in the street to make their own conclusions why these manufacturers seem unable or unwilling to specify their oil in this manner, why would they NOT want you to know the numbers in the oil ? HHHmmmm.

 

Mick Richards

Mick,

As my posts show I am struggling to find a form of words, a visualisable image, that makes the difference between "ppm ZDDP" and "ppm Zn as ZDDP" clear. Will keep worrying it......then TRA beckons

 

The oil companies have hidden a big reformulation of anti-scuff by changing the units and hoping no-one would spot it.

Your photo shows how it should be labelled.

 

Peter

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Edit: This post was written in parallel to Mick's post...Nr 83

 

Peter,

 

so at the end there is no classic oil manufacturer who states correct mass of ZN / P (not the complete molecule), appart Penrite -Down-under.

The European Penrite spec does not state ppm either does it.

 

I found Rektol in D, who make classic oils in many different viscosities.

https://www.rektol-klassik.de/index.php?language=en

 

When I asked them about Zn and P they came up with a table where the differet oil specs vary between 1000 and 1200 ppm in Zn and P mass

 

And we ended up in a discussion, where it turned out, that viscosity of an oil is very important and that it is difficult to say, which was the right viscosity for a modified engine, without oil cooler and without knowledge about the oil temperature - which is the case for my TR6.

So I will monitor the oil temp. next season with an infrared gun on the black oil-pan, since i don't have a bung in the oil pan to put in a sender.

 

Patrick

Patrick,

You got figures of Zn and P from Rektol, around 1000-1200 ppm. That sounds good to me.

If the oil pressure looks good I would still use 20-50 in a road car.We can only drive hard for short periods and then the oil will cool off again !

Or do you drive the autobahns at sustained high speeds ?

Peter

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Seems like we are chasing our own tails Peter, some owners are confused to the extent that they now grasp ANY mention of ZDDP just grateful to get information...ANY information from oil companies.

As we said earlier in this thread if ZDDP is important to you (it is for me) then buy oils from manufacturers who publicly state the numbers in the correct way for example:

 

attachicon.gifClassic_Oils__Heritage_20w50_LW11.jpg

 

NOTE ! Do not confuse the firm Classic Oils Ltd with the reference in post 81 of Classic Engine Oils offered by the other firm.

 

Seems simple enough to me, and let me assure you ANY firm that wishes to be openhanded and clear in it's dealings with the public should advertise their products in the same way. Otherwise it leaves the man in the street to make their own conclusions why these manufacturers seem unable or unwilling to specify their oil in this manner, why would they NOT want you to know the numbers in the oil ? HHHmmmm.

 

Mick Richards

At £17.95 for 5ltrs wouldn’t be considered expensive either.
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Patrick,

You got figures of Zn and P from Rektol, around 1000-1200 ppm. That sounds good to me.

If the oil pressure looks good I would still use 20-50 in a road car.We can only drive hard for short periods and then the oil will cool off again !

Or do you drive the autobahns at sustained high speeds ?

Peter

 

Peter,

 

Sustained speeds at highway in my case is between 3000 and 4000 rpm, more like 3500

I'd like to drive into the Alps one day and drive up the passes...

 

Patrick

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Hmmmm, I use Lucas Hot Rod & Classic Car 20W-50 which I think is available in the UK. https://lucasoil.com/products/hot-rod-high-performance/hot-rod-classic-car-20w-50-motor-oil

 

The TDS states that it has zinc at Wt% 0.21(2100PPM) & phosphorous at Wt% 0.19. (1900PPM) https://lucasoil.com/pdf/TDS_HotRodClassicCarOil_20W50.pdf

 

Reading all the above posts makes me think that these levels are excessive?

 

Any thoughts?

 

Graeme

Edited by graeme
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Hmmmm, I use Lucas Hot Rod & Classic Car 20W-50 which I think is available in the UK. https://lucasoil.com/products/hot-rod-high-performance/hot-rod-classic-car-20w-50-motor-oil

 

The TDS states that it has zinc at Wt% 0.21(2100PPM) & phosphorous at Wt% 0.19. (1900PPM) https://lucasoil.com/pdf/TDS_HotRodClassicCarOil_20W50.pdf

 

Reading all the above posts makes me think that these levels are excessive?

 

Any thoughts?

 

Graeme

Zn at 2100ppm is high. But they say : "...for racing.Not recommended for passenger car use". It might use a type of ZDDP that needs higher temperatures or rubbing loads to deposit the glassy film. Road driving might not deposit it well despite the higher Zn.

Peter

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Peter,

 

Sustained speeds at highway in my case is between 3000 and 4000 rpm, more like 3500

I'd like to drive into the Alps one day and drive up the passes...

 

Patrick

Patrick, I would just keep and eys on the oil pressure those rpm are not excessive. PI and Alps can be interesting - there are threads on altitude on here. Peter

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I asked similar questions of several oil manufacturers for an article in the Leicester group mag.

 

Many answered without an issue (or didn't need asking as they put it on their web site like Millers for instance), others came out with the it's not so simple blurb. Oddly some managed to cough up the date after I said it would be simple for me to make the assumption that the level was either low or impossible for to me to recommend. One or two then did give their figures (and indeed were lower than those in the know suggest)

 

It may not be so much now, but when 20/50 was more commonly used in fleet cars the oil companies would sell the same oil under different names with different prices to suite the market. Classic car home mechanics were more of a cash cow than a fleet of vans at a commercial depo or even the average home mechanic.

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I asked similar questions of several oil manufacturers for an article in the Leicester group mag.

 

Many answered without an issue (or didn't need asking as they put it on their web site like Millers for instance), others came out with the it's not so simple blurb. Oddly some managed to cough up the date after I said it would be simple for me to make the assumption that the level was either low or impossible for to me to recommend. One or two then did give their figures (and indeed were lower than those in the know suggest)

 

It may not be so much now, but when 20/50 was more commonly used in fleet cars the oil companies would sell the same oil under different names with different prices to suite the market. Classic car home mechanics were more of a cash cow than a fleet of vans at a commercial depo or even the average home mechanic.

 

True that refiners produced and packaged various brands of oils. Mobil Oil, Birkenhead, produced Castrol and others.

Eric.

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Ok this has become a huge thread to excuse me if you have talked about this earlier but I use valvoline vr1 20w50 which seems to claim 0.13% zn. Guessing this is w/w? Approx 1000ppm?

Reasonable value?

Cheers

Tim

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Ok this has become a huge thread to excuse me if you have talked about this earlier but I use valvoline vr1 20w50 which seems to claim 0.13% zn. Guessing this is w/w? Approx 1000ppm?

Reasonable value?

 

 

VR1 is a good oil.... quoted ZDDP level used to be ~1400ppm, i used it for a considerable time in my Stag when prices were very reasonable, in my view it is now overpriced.

 

As mentioned earlier, and on other threads, i'm now using Classic Oils Heritage 20/50, good spec and sensibly priced, whats not to like.

 

.... Andy

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Thanks guys. Know what you mean about the price. Also about evidence of engine issues with incorrect oils. It was true that my cam and tappets where a real state when I refreshed my engine a while back but they looked pretty original and who knows how many miles they had done. Hard to link to the lack of Zn.

Cheers Tim

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Thanks guys. Know what you mean about the price. Also about evidence of engine issues with incorrect oils. It was true that my cam and tappets where a real state when I refreshed my engine a while back but they looked pretty original and who knows how many miles they had done. Hard to link to the lack of Zn.

Cheers Tim

0.13% Zn = 1300 ppm Zn .

Linking any failure to inadequate oil will be near impossible, even on a fresh engine. There are decades of experiece that correct ZDDP oils do the job. Modern oils are not tested on flat tappet engines so there is an element of faith in oil companies if their ZDDP is low, and tying a failure to their oil will be impossible for the individual.

Peter

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Yes exactly.. remember reading details of engine testing at cov climax and BRM using different lubricants.. of course these were OHC engines.. but tappet breakup was common, although usually a manufacturing flaw or vibrations..

Cheers

Tim

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Back on special again so just ordered another 30 litres ...

 

post-14246-0-97855500-1513379557_thumb.jpg

Edited by KiwiTR6
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