grumpy2 Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Well now it's going again (see broken down i general section) Id like to address a couple of minor irritations. First is slight pinking under usual conditions, eg, low Rev acceleration up hill, I'm guessing the timing needs checking and possibly retarding. What is the correct dynamic setting. I can only find static settings. If I keep the revs low can I use the static setting? 11 degrees. secondly I've always has hot and cold starting issues. Always starts but needs more cranking than I would like. From cold, it coughs once straight away but doesn't catch then takes about 5-10 seconds cranking to fire running rough until the throttle is blipped then it's fine. From hot it needs about 5 seconds cranking then starts and runs fine. I'm thinking vaporisation in the fuel lines but would welcome other more easily solvable suggestions. Warm starting and restarts are immediate. It's a 72 CP car now with correct red (DD) rotor arm, electronic ignition and correctly set and balanced butterflies. I have a sports coil to fit from TR Bitz Thanks in advance Gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Dear Gary, Centrifugal Advance for CP/CR engines. Here are the Degrees Crankshaft Advance from the BL W/Manual. Check at decelerating speeds! For Lucas Distributor 41219 or Standpart No214459, Lucas type 22D6. (Check numbers on the distributor) Below 350 RPM No Advance 900 RPM 0 to 4 1600 RPM 5 to 9 2600 RPM 12 to 16 4600 RPM 12 to 16 Cold starting: Make sure that the 2 choke cables are adjusted as per the manual first but it is difficult to advise from a distance on hot starting as this could be electrical as well? Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John390 Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) Turn the ignition on and wait a short while for the fuel pressure to build up and then turn the engine over. It has worked for me! I also ran another supply cable down to the fuel pump because of the voltage drop when cranking (low pressure)! Cheers John Edited August 14, 2015 by John390 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grumpy2 Posted August 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Thanks Bruce, John always wait a few seconds for the pump to build pressure. Is is possible to measure the fuel pressure? If so how and what should it be? Cheers Gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grumpy2 Posted August 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Forgot. Bruce cables adjusted as per manual. Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Thanks Bruce, John always wait a few seconds for the pump to build pressure. Is is possible to measure the fuel pressure? If so how and what should it be? Cheers Gary The pinking could also be low fuel pressure. But spark timing is easier to check. TRBitz will have psi-measuring kit. And the pinking could be a bit of both, advance and lean. Peter 105 -110psi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kevo_6 Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Hi Gary, I don't want to teach how to suck eggs but fuel octane can make a big difference. I will use Shell V Power if available. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Gary, Cold Start: Have you set the choke cam idle speed to 1500/1700 RPM with M/U cable disconnected? Are you using a Lucas or Bosch Pump? Fuel pressure is measured at the M/U, as Peter says John Sykes of TRBitz, will have one. What: coil, rotor arm, electronic ignition and HT leads are you using? The factors that effect Volt Drop / high Current at the pump are: Using 15 or 16 ACR Alternators, Current ( Power ) through the ign. s/w,size of power supply wire to the pump ( this was modified sometime in 1972 by Triumph to 2mm2 wire) and size of battery power. Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grumpy2 Posted August 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 wow Bruce, that's some list. He's what I know from memory. Now has DD red rotor arm, standard Lucas coil,, cap and leads. Ignition is the basic accuspark type (used them in all my classics over the years without any problems). I have a sport coil to fit from TR Bitz Pump is the Bosch one. Choke cam set as per manual with feeler gauge. unsure of full choke idle speed as once it catches I put the choke into about 1/3 with idle speed approx 1000 rpm. choke fully off within 2-3 mins or 1/2 mile. re mixture, not really checked but plugs are blacker than optimum but not overly so, don't look to be running lean. Haven't tried higher octane fuel although it may be worth a go next time MU reconditioned by Prestige about 7000 miles ago before my ownership Gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Gary, I would fit the sport coil ASAP but you may also need to change the HT leads, are you able to check the resistance of each lead? If they are the old OEM Rists type I would bin them. They have a Green PVC Sheath with carbon string as a conductor. I have no experience of the accuspark products so I cannot comment. I use US coils, ignition and leads. One thing that I did forget is: Check the carbon brush spring in the Dis.Cap as this has a habit of disintegrating in the Lucas Repro Caps. Also what spark plugs are you using? But I still think that you should first check the fuel line pressure to eliminate that area. Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobinTR6 Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 I had similar issues on my rebuilt car with starting, I now turn on ignition for 30 secs or so then crank engine, now starts immediately or second crank. I'd retard the ignition a bit first as it by far easiest way to verify timing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grumpy2 Posted August 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) Sports coil fitted, leads are green ones from paddocks black carbon core. Resistance is a bit odd in that 3 are around 1.5k the other 3 are around 0.5k. Lead length may be the cause??? What leads would you recommend and where from? Timing was at 12 degrees btdc, retained via vernier wheel to 11. Readings taken at 700rpm on electronic external tacho. witgout a 50 mile round trip I'm unable to test fuel pressure With the bonnet up in the garage starting is almost instantaneous. I'm Still inclined to think it's vapourisation as with the bonnet raised the ambient temperatures in the engine bay are obviously lower. Next ploy will be to raise the bonnet straight after a long run and see if that makes any difference. Then I'll try the 30 seconds technique. I usually only give it 5 - 10. Thanks Gary Edited August 14, 2015 by grumpy2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Hi Gary, your resistance readings may be due to the lengths. The carbon leads should and can work very well. many members like spending 'mucho wonga' on very expensive leads. However, plain copper cored leads work very very well. the lead length has little effect. You will need either plugs with built in resistance BP'R'6H (TR4A) or plug caps with built in resistors. TRy not to use both together. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Hi Gary! I now assume that since you have fitted your sports coil you car now starts better? Advise! The trouble with the old design carbon leads is aging and when they cook under the bonnet the resistance changes, always higher. This is one reason I am not a fan of them and as the type of petrol in use today burns at a higher temp, this only compounds the problem, lastly high voltage coils seem to finish them off quicker. I would buy silicone jacket type like: Moss's Cobalt or see what TRBitz has to offer, as they are a middle of the road type, with a good track record. As you are still concerned about vapour locking, you have not got s/s braided injector hoses? As these are well known to cause this problem. Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grumpy2 Posted August 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Hi Can't say the coil has made a difference. Plug leads are under a year old so unlikely to have suffered ageing. TR Bitz had no leads available. I have black plastic fuel injection pipes not SS braided types Gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Denis Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Well now it's going again (see broken down i general section) Id like to address a couple of minor irritations. First is slight pinking under usual conditions, eg, low Rev acceleration up hill, I'm guessing the timing needs checking and possibly retarding. What is the correct dynamic setting. I can only find static settings. If I keep the revs low can I use the static setting? 11 degrees. secondly I've always has hot and cold starting issues. Always starts but needs more cranking than I would like. From cold, it coughs once straight away but doesn't catch then takes about 5-10 seconds cranking to fire running rough until the throttle is blipped then it's fine. From hot it needs about 5 seconds cranking then starts and runs fine. I'm thinking vaporisation in the fuel lines but would welcome other more easily solvable suggestions. Warm starting and restarts are immediate. It's a 72 CP car now with correct red (DD) rotor arm, electronic ignition and correctly set and balanced butterflies. I have a sports coil to fit from TR Bitz Thanks in advance Gary Gary, I've owned my 1969/70 CP Pi car for 43 years and it's never ever been a car that would start on the button like a modern car cold or hot...I have always considered it part of it's character, as was when it was new fouling s/plugs! Yes, I leave the ignition on whilst I roll it out the garage and shut the garage door then get aboard do my 'flight checks' seat belt etc before attempting to crank...yes, it attempts to fire straight away, then fails to catch...so I wait another 15 secs or so, then continue to chase it on the starter as it tries to catch (from cold) However it always starts after a few cranks when hot and a few more cranks when only warm, but needs the pump (Lucas) running for 15-20 seconds when the engines warm. And yes, mine used to pink pulling away, even on Shell V Power + Nitro (always use that by the way) but since getting it strobbed up at 11.5 BTC that has stopped (and my c/head is standard) All part of the charm and character of an old classic car with mechanical Injection Gary! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tim D. Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Denis, Sounds exactly like mine does. Attempts to catch on he first turn when cold and then takes a bit of cranking before firing properly. Strangely it started more quickly before I changed the MU for a new one with new banjo bolts. Wonder whether there is a little drain back from the injector lines to the MU? Perhaps when the mu cools after a run the fuel inside contracts and drags in some fuel from the lines. Other thought is that there is still some air in the high point in the lines and this contracts upon coling and pulls a little air in from the injector. I have a clear injector hose on cylinder and ther does seem to be some residual air at the top of the line. Wouldn't take much as the injector Pulses even on full choke don't have a massive volume.. Don't really mind this though as it starts pretty much in the same way each time. When hot it starts on the button. Cheers Tim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peejay4A Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Symptomatic of low fuel pressure on cold cranking in my experience. Either the PRV needs adjusting, fuel pump is failing or more likely too much volt drop at the pump on cranking. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HarveyCoppock Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Run pump for 30secs before cranking... isn't the coil going to get a bit hot doing that? I run the pump for a bit, prob bout 5. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grumpy2 Posted August 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 What causes volt drop? Old wiring? What should pump voltage on cranking be? That I can fix if it's a problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peejay4A Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Voltage drop can be caused by: Poor connections anywhere in the circuit, especially the cutoff switch and including the earthing point for the pump. A failing battery unable to keep a good terminal voltage whilst cranking. Poor earthing of the battery negative to the body. In addition to cleaning up all the relevant connections the popular mod is to add a heavy duty feed to the pump which is switched by a relay which is in turn controlled by the existing wiring thus taking it out of the equation. In order to fully diagnose the problem you need to get a pressure gauge connected to the MU and check for 106 psi both running and cranking (or as near to it as you can get whilst cranking). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John390 Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 As I said in the third post Gary. I just ran another cable of similar dimensions from the front of the car to the pump. It runs on the nearside. Cheers John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grumpy2 Posted August 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Thanks for the above, I'll give a heavier duty cable a go. I have an idea too. I may well rig up a voltmeter in the dash to see what the cranking volts versus no cranking volts, can't do any harm and easy to do Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grumpy2 Posted August 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 Some results Voltages at the pump Ignition on.....10.4v Cranking........9.6v Hot idling........11.9v Driving.............12.2v Voltages at the battery Ignition on.....12.3v Cranking........11.7v Hot idling........14.1v Driving.............14.3v So approx 2v drop down the wires, more investigation and more to come. Interesting Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peejay4A Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 Definitely go for the heavy cable and relay. A pressure check at the MU would complete the picture. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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