aardvark Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 Hello all. My fuel pump's noise has changed recently from a scream to a warble and I'm thinking that its trying to tell me to change the fuel filter. Thing is I'm not sure what type of fuel filter I need. I have a Renault Dodge (?) one on there at the moment - not sure how old that one is. I've looked through the old Lucas PI workshop manual and there is a photo of a CAV 7111/296. I can't find that filter on the web, the closest is a 711/296 (is it the same?). Unless it is stamped as 'for petrol' how will I know? Has anyone got a list of trusted equivalent fuel filter part numbers for different manufacturers? I'm sure the answer's on this forum somewhere but I can't find it. Thanks Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard71 Posted July 5, 2015 Report Share Posted July 5, 2015 Hi Dave, Fleetguard Part# FF167. Widely available and used for both petrol & diesel. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobinTR6 Posted July 6, 2015 Report Share Posted July 6, 2015 Dave, Delphi HDF 296 (7111-296), says diesel on box, ignore, recommended by Neil Raven Smith one of the forum Pi guru's. Yes that's what I have. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stallie Posted July 6, 2015 Report Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) Perfect timing for this thread. I'm back into the antipodean cold wintery garage this weekend to prep the '6 to be fired up again after 6 months overseas. I need a new inline filter before my bosch pump as the old inline filter was too small, and I've found this kit locally for the above filter with 8mm or 10mm barbs. Any comments? http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FFK2143-Diesel-Fuel-Filter-amp-Hose-Kit-w-Single-CAV-HDF296-Glass-Bowl-8mm-Barbs-/271576235221?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FFK2141-Diesel-Fuel-Filter-Hose-Kit-w-Single-CAV-HDF296-Glass-Bowl-10mm-Barbs/271423485426?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140117125611%26meid%3Dbed0dc561a7f45d18241c74adfef7c7d%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D10%26mehot%3Dlo%26sd%3D271576235221 Edited July 6, 2015 by stallie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aardvark Posted July 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2015 My parts supplier only has FRAM C1191PL which he says is an equivalent. Looking on the net, I can't find a data sheet for this filter although I am pretty sure that it is a diesel filter. Has anyone come across this one before? Do diesel filters disintegrate in petrol like they used to? Cheers Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 Perfect timing for this thread. I'm back into the antipodean cold wintery garage this weekend to prep the '6 to be fired up again after 6 months overseas. I need a new inline filter before my bosch pump as the old inline filter was too small, and I've found this kit locally for the above filter with 8mm or 10mm barbs. Any comments? http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FFK2143-Diesel-Fuel-Filter-amp-Hose-Kit-w-Single-CAV-HDF296-Glass-Bowl-8mm-Barbs-/271576235221?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276 http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FFK2141-Diesel-Fuel-Filter-Hose-Kit-w-Single-CAV-HDF296-Glass-Bowl-10mm-Barbs/271423485426?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140117125611%26meid%3Dbed0dc561a7f45d18241c74adfef7c7d%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D10%26mehot%3Dlo%26sd%3D271576235221 Not sure that a Bosch pump would be able to pull through that type. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 I wouldn't want to put an original type filter upstream of a Bosch pump. Most OE spec Bosch K systems offered the pump an straight flow from the tank, the pump pushing fuel first into an accumulator and then through the filter. Cart, horse and the order thereof . . . . . A Sytec bullet filter with cleanable metal mesh element generally does all that's needed between tank and filter in terms of catching any larger particles - and if it needs cleaning regularly, then the tank is the root of the problem. For example - http://www.glencoeltd.co.uk/sytec-fuel-filters-swirl-pots-water-separators/sytec-motorsport-fuel-filters-bullet/ Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnG Posted July 7, 2015 Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 Dave If you want one of the best available, go for a Parker Racor element. I have always used Racor exclusively on my boats, primarily to protect the injectors from water. I twice had expensive contamination problems, before going down the Racor route, since then, never a worry. I know that water is not such a big issue with decent forecourt fuel here in the UK, but, if I ever get a car with a fuel system which utilises a filter element for which Racor make a replacement, I will go Racor. If not, I will change the complete filter assembly for a Racor unit The replacement for the Delphi HDF 296 / Fleetguard FF167 is the Racor PFF296 No connection, just a very satisfied user. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stallie Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) Thanks for replies. I had the tank acid cleaned inside a couple of years ago so should be pretty good. I will try and source a sytec pump. Sorry Dave for hijacking your thread (I didn't read that you had an original system). Edited July 8, 2015 by stallie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aardvark Posted July 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Just to close off this thread - the original one that is , I decided to try the Fram C1191PL. All seems fine and the pump sounds a bit better too. From my research, older Bosch installations (mine was around 1995) merely swapped the Lucas pump with a Bosch pump (probably a Volvo item) in roughly the same position as the Lucas pump. Mine has been running like this since 1995 although the pump is lying horizontal (sort of) roughly in line with the bottom of the fuel tank. Therefore it pulls fuel from the CAV filter (which is sited lower). When I released the fuel pinch clamps the filter clearly was heard to fill via gravity. When I switched on the fuel pump it took maybe 30 seconds to pull the fuel from the filter to purge the air. I tried to lower the pump by hand (limited by the length of the hoses and wiring) and there was a slight change in pump noise. Therefore I conclude that lowering the pump would be beneficial but, at least on my installation, it appears to work without any problems although filter changes should probably be more regular (filter clogging will cause more of a problem with my installation than one where the filter is downstream of the pump). From what I can tell, my filter was last changed in 1999 , about 3000 miles ago and I was surprised to see all the crud in the filter in spite of my tank appearing spotless inside - makes you wonder how dirty the petrol station tanks are. Before you ask, I've had the car 1 year have have put 2000 of those miles on! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 " From my research, older Bosch installations (mine was around 1995) merely swapped the Lucas pump with a Bosch pump (probably a Volvo item) in roughly the same position as the Lucas pump. " Which is one good reason why the installations didn't work at the optimum . . . . and why pumps tended to have a limited life. Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR NIALL Posted July 12, 2015 Report Share Posted July 12, 2015 Just to close off this thread - the original one that is , I decided to try the Fram C1191PL. All seems fine and the pump sounds a bit better too. From my research, older Bosch installations (mine was around 1995) merely swapped the Lucas pump with a Bosch pump (probably a Volvo item) in roughly the same position as the Lucas pump. Mine has been running like this since 1995 although the pump is lying horizontal (sort of) roughly in line with the bottom of the fuel tank. Therefore it pulls fuel from the CAV filter (which is sited lower). When I released the fuel pinch clamps the filter clearly was heard to fill via gravity. When I switched on the fuel pump it took maybe 30 seconds to pull the fuel from the filter to purge the air. I tried to lower the pump by hand (limited by the length of the hoses and wiring) and there was a slight change in pump noise. Therefore I conclude that lowering the pump would be beneficial but, at least on my installation, it appears to work without any problems although filter changes should probably be more regular (filter clogging will cause more of a problem with my installation than one where the filter is downstream of the pump). From what I can tell, my filter was last changed in 1999 , about 3000 miles ago and I was surprised to see all the crud in the filter in spite of my tank appearing spotless inside - makes you wonder how dirty the petrol station tanks are. Before you ask, I've had the car 1 year have have put 2000 of those miles on! The Pump is now Old and Struggling think a good idea would be to lower to the Spare Wheel Well re-pipe and extend Electrics. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jamesStag Posted August 27, 2016 Report Share Posted August 27, 2016 Evening All, Just found out a 'lesson' on suitable fuel filters ( as used in the CAV housing) and thought I would add it to this old thread rather than start something completely new. I was reviewing my fuel lines and filters to resolve some niggles I have with the PI fuel system (I'm running a standard Lucas system) and I obtained a new filter element from one of the very well known suppliers which provided a 'Britpart RTC6079'. I found it had a rather high pressure drop. With half a tank of fuel, and measuring the time it took to fill 0.5L bottle of fuel by gravity flowing out of the pump inlet rubber pipe. This filter took 3mins 50 seconds ! I later fitted a Coopers Fiamm alternative element that I had and this was much faster at only 42seconds. A huge difference. I assume this is because the Britpart is a diesel filter and probably filters to a very fine level. Fine for Landrovers, but not good at preventing cavitation in the Lucas pump. Also due to time pressures I only took the Britpart element out after 4 days, and in that process it fell apart - The adhesive from the element to the outer case had failed. Again I assume this is because the adhesive is not stable with petrol. See the pic attached, also note the two cracks in the adhesive area. Having found this thread now, for the future I'll get hold of either the Delphi or Racor Filters. Have any other people found issues with filter elements in this petrol application? Cheers, James. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aardvark Posted August 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2016 Hello James. The Fram filter post #10 fitted last year works fine. Especially after lowering the pump into the spare wheel well. Pump primes almost instantly. Cheers Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tim D. Posted August 28, 2016 Report Share Posted August 28, 2016 Interesting conversation. Have been running the older Bosch pump conversion (the 996 fitted where the old Lucas was with the old CAV filter) and it has seemed pretty happy. The only thing it didn't like was having the old cracked fuel pipe replaced. This lead to it screaming. Solved by installing an upgraded PRV which dampened the unwanted resonance. Cheers Tim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jamesStag Posted August 28, 2016 Report Share Posted August 28, 2016 Hi Dave and Tim, thanks for comments. Ok well I suspect Fram will be easier to get hold of so useful to know. Cheers, J. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kawedo Posted January 15, 2021 Report Share Posted January 15, 2021 Hallo James, for the PI with a Lucas pump and CAV filter, petrol filter inserts have recently been sold, which are actually intended for diesel. A diesel filter works for a while, but swells up and at some point doesn't let anything through. An inexpensive alternative is the filter: Mahle KX 23 Best regards Charly Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted January 15, 2021 Report Share Posted January 15, 2021 On 8/27/2016 at 8:44 PM, jamesStag said: Evening All, Just found out a 'lesson' on suitable fuel filters ( as used in the CAV housing) and thought I would add it to this old thread rather than start something completely new. I was reviewing my fuel lines and filters to resolve some niggles I have with the PI fuel system (I'm running a standard Lucas system) and I obtained a new filter element from one of the very well known suppliers which provided a 'Britpart RTC6079'. I found it had a rather high pressure drop. With half a tank of fuel, and measuring the time it took to fill 0.5L bottle of fuel by gravity flowing out of the pump inlet rubber pipe. This filter took 3mins 50 seconds ! I later fitted a Coopers Fiamm alternative element that I had and this was much faster at only 42seconds. A huge difference. I assume this is because the Britpart is a diesel filter and probably filters to a very fine level. Fine for Landrovers, but not good at preventing cavitation in the Lucas pump. Also due to time pressures I only took the Britpart element out after 4 days, and in that process it fell apart - The adhesive from the element to the outer case had failed. Again I assume this is because the adhesive is not stable with petrol. See the pic attached, also note the two cracks in the adhesive area. Having found this thread now, for the future I'll get hold of either the Delphi or Racor Filters. Have any other people found issues with filter elements in this petrol application? Cheers, James. Yes years ago! I then only used genuine Lucas 54733180 OEM which was a CAV part. I would not buy any Britpart as there seems to be quality issues with many of their parts?? Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 On 8/28/2016 at 11:53 AM, Tim D. said: Interesting conversation. Have been running the older Bosch pump conversion (the 996 fitted where the old Lucas was with the old CAV filter) and it has seemed pretty happy. The only thing it didn't like was having the old cracked fuel pipe replaced. This lead to it screaming. Solved by installing an upgraded PRV which dampened the unwanted resonance. Cheers Tim Hi Tim, Yes but did you fit one Malcom's 1000 psi PTFE s/s braided hoses from pump to PRV as they were well known to cause harmonic resonance and then you had to buy one of his diaphragm PRV to get rid of the noise? Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tim D. Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 No it was just a standard hose. But diaphragm PRV sorted it yes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jamesStag Posted January 30, 2021 Report Share Posted January 30, 2021 Hi, yes this was 'years ago'... The Britpart filter was not selected by my choice. I was surprised to see it sold as a suitable filter from one of the very common 'Triumph' suppliers! Obviously not the case. Funnily enough after having snags with the refurbished PI pump, once I put in the correct petrol style filter and crucially I lubricated the bottom bearing in the pump, which increased its running speed and pitch it's been humming away happily to itself in the boot with no issues since..... Cheers, J. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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