Wimbleball Posted July 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 Just drained the oil and taken off the spin on oil filter adaptor. A question, the spring loaded plunger, does the spring go into the block with the rubber seal of the plunger against the adaptor, or does the spring go into the adaptor with the plunger against the block? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Moltu Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 Unless you have changed the dipstick it would be hard to use overfilling as an explanation for excess oil consumption if it didn't do it before the rebuild and the dipstick hasn't been changed. A big leak would leave puddles on the floor - which I assume isn't the case - nut if it were consider a loose oil filter or inadequate seal around a spin on conversion. Gut feeling is that there is a problem with the oil control ring/s which either haven't bedded in or perhaps haven't been assembled correctly on the piston. It's a lot of oil for not bedded in or inadequate glaze busting when honing. If it is an oil control ring problem the compressions will be, likely as not, OK. Valve guides could be an issue - if new have been fitted and reamed too loosely then a lot of oil can go down them. They never had seals when new but you can retro fit o-ring type seals similar to the MG B series engines. You can with a bit of fiddling stick Mini oil seals on but really you need to machine a grove on the inlet guides to hold them on the guide. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peejay4A Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) Rubber seal against the block. Check that there is only one rubber ring in the outer block groove too. Edited July 20, 2014 by peejay4A Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wimbleball Posted July 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 No, it never did it before the rebuild. The valve guides were replaced when the head was converted to unleaded. Will the oil control rings bed in over time? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wimbleball Posted July 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 Well that puts the overfilling to bed. Changed the oil & oil filter, put in exactly 1 can of 25-50. Warmed it up, then floored it up a hill and the road behid dissapeared in blue smoke. Still very little oil pressure on tickover. What should the oil pressure be on tickover? Got be a head off/engine out I think. Thanks for all the sugestions Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) Unless you have changed the dipstick it would be hard to use overfilling as an explanation for excess oil consumption if it didn't do it before the rebuild and the dipstick hasn't been changed. A big leak would leave puddles on the floor - which I assume isn't the case - nut if it were consider a loose oil filter or inadequate seal around a spin on conversion. Gut feeling is that there is a problem with the oil control ring/s which either haven't bedded in or perhaps haven't been assembled correctly on the piston. It's a lot of oil for not bedded in or inadequate glaze busting when honing. If it is an oil control ring problem the compressions will be, likely as not, OK. Valve guides could be an issue - if new have been fitted and reamed too loosely then a lot of oil can go down them. They never had seals when new but you can retro fit o-ring type seals similar to the MG B series engines. You can with a bit of fiddling stick Mini oil seals on but really you need to machine a grove on the inlet guides to hold them on the guide. Peter was putting in 1.5 gallons - that's a half gallon too much. Good job he mentioned it or we would be looking for other answers. Aaagh just read his post above. Maybe its not overfilling. But compressions are OK so not pistons. Peter Edited July 20, 2014 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) Well that puts the overfilling to bed. Changed the oil & oil filter, put in exactly 1 can of 25-50. Warmed it up, then floored it up a hill and the road behid dissapeared in blue smoke. Still very little oil pressure on tickover. What should the oil pressure be on tickover? Got be a head off/engine out I think. Thanks for all the sugestions But the compressions are very good, so its not pistons. How long did you drive after filling the sump correctly? I suggest not long enough to allow all the flung oil to disperse. Also, the filters may still be pulling oil into the engine. Are the K&Ns wet with engine oil not slightly damp with red oil? Wash them and re-oil with K&N red oil to spec. The cam followers hold maybe 20 mls of oil each so you need to drive until they have flung it out. Low oil pressure on tick over - how low? I used to get 20psi engine hot on 20--50. And that crank is still fine, not reground, at 280k miles. What was done to the crank at the rebuild? IMHO its daft removing the head if compressions are OK - what d'you expect to see? There's no way a smoke-screen of blue smoke is going to appear with those compressions. I've had pistons with a hole a few mm across and the blue smoke was almost invisible in the mirror when driving. No need for engine out. Crank mains and bigend bearing shells, and oil pump, can be replaced just by dropping the sump, and no need to remove head to work on bottom end. And we should ask why the smoke appears going up a hill not when on the flat ?? Assuming you have given it full throttle on the flat too. So I think the rocker platform is still swimming in oil. Even after-market rocker oil feed pipes can lead to oil burning. Removing the rocker cover is easy enough. Adding 50% too much oil is a known fault. Follow the logic from there. How much volume was lost - how much did you top up with - after each run? " from the dipstick full mark to its end" - and all that went in 10 miles? Tell us how much was added. A lot may have leaked out past the crank oil seals or even the sump seal - it flows back along the central chassis, and you'll find the rear valence is covered in oil spots ( which, some say, is why Triumph painted it black). Peter Edited July 20, 2014 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 So we'll go with great minds thinking alike then!!!! Rob, Hmmm - I'm a scientist - so dont go with the great minds idea....much prefer to cut and thrust of informed debate. Nothing better than seeing a 'great mind' put on the spot by a pertinent question from a postgrad student!! As for consensus - its the kiss of death to any field of science. Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Davidw Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 I agree that 20 psi on hot tickover is not unusual, Peter, but I think the OP quoted here is way too low for a rebuilt engine. Wimbleball says the pump and the OP relief valve were replaced at build. I strongly suspect the problem is with one of these. I vaguely recall the pump can be fitted 180 degrees out with potentially serious consequences? Perhaps someone could expand on this? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 (edited) I agree that 20 psi on hot tickover is not unusual, Peter, but I think the OP quoted here is way too low for a rebuilt engine. Wimbleball says the pump and the OP relief valve were replaced at build. I strongly suspect the problem is with one of these. I vaguely recall the pump can be fitted 180 degrees out with potentially serious consequences? Perhaps someone could expand on this? Hi David, And rubbsih repro oil pumps could be added to your list.** I dont think the oil pressure related to oil consumption though, and not to smoking. Dont know about the 180degree error. cheers Peter ** edit: Maybe the op was measured when the sump was over-full. Then the thrashing of the oil by the crank could have foamed the oil so that air got entrained. Edited July 20, 2014 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
littlejim Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 Taking the head off would let you see if the head gasket has gone, and is the cause of the problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Taking the head off would let you see if the head gasket has gone, and is the cause of the problem. Why would a head gasket only cause oil smoke going uphill? And it looks like its using 2 pints of oil in 10 miles, after starting during an uphill effort, not before ( although we dont know if he checked for oil loss before the hill) I wonder if he fitted the wrong gasket for the block??? I cant see why that should fit the symptoms but it is easy mistake to make.On other hand the water jacket wouldbe spouting coolant. It is weird. Peter Edited July 21, 2014 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Peter, Re-reading your posts you say: ""There is also a small amount of blue smoke coming from the rocker cover breather."" - where does that go - into air you say - does that mean into one K&N? or just hanging loose ?? catch tank? You didn't. respond to answer Andy #27 so I'll ask again: Did you run the engine before the rebuild, over-filling it with 1.5 gallons, And going up that hill it behaved fine - no smoke? And confirm: 2 pints in 10 miles gone ? I cannot see oil control rings doing that, especially not when new, assuming correct manufacture. Interesting that no oil lost at 50mph, even if you go up that hill? Was the head gasket correct for the block?? There's two types. Did your engine bulider know that? They are distinguished by a tab at the rear. How thoroughly were the mating surfaces cleaned? and no gasket goo used I hope. The plug-side corner to the rear of #6 cylinder carries the oil way to the rockers. Its just possible the oil way to the head is blowing oil into #6 cylinder at higher oil pressures - ie at 70mph not at 50mph. Is #6 plug oily? Maybe the leak starts at high oil pressure and then persists leaking until you let the engine cool down again. That could well burn a lot of oil. Weird fault indeed. Peter Edited July 21, 2014 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Smith Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Good advice here about running in after an engine rebuild: Note: using running in oil and why. http://www.peter-burgess.com/page45.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Davidw Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Hi Peter, Good point re the smoking. But the low oil pressure is still a worry, which might indicate there are two or more issues. I think your point re the oil way to the head is a possible cause of smoke. Of course having now switched to a Staaaaaaaaag (as Clarkson would say) I have left all these problems behind.....and exchanged them for a brand set of exciting, expensive and unknown problems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Salisbury Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Rob, Hmmm - I'm a scientist - so dont go with the great minds idea....much prefer to cut and thrust of informed debate. Nothing better than seeing a 'great mind' put on the spot by a pertinent question from a postgrad student!! As for consensus - its the kiss of death to any field of science. Peter Peter, no need for a debate, two "great scientific minds" looked at the problem, analysed the results, came to a conclusion and postulated a theory within minutes of one another, job done so it's down the SU bar, no hang on further data has blown our theories out of the water!! So how about this one, those compression figures are rather high for new rings,not yet bedded in, almost as if the bores have been oiled, where do we get oil from?, I wonder if the oil control rings are not working properly, fitted incorrectly or just not very good, for preference I always use Deves Rings. The low oil pressure is definitely wrong and and needs to be corrected, oil pump, pressure relief valve and crank bearings all need double checking, and sooner rather than later. Cheers Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ctc77965o Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Are you sure the engine is burning all that oil?? Surely it would foul the plugs... Any chance that it's being pumped out of a hole in the engine onto the floor and hot exhaust manifold? Had that on a BMW when an exh manifold stud fell out, draining oil from the head straight onto exhaust manifold...engine ran fine but I left a complete smoke screen, James Bond style.... Edited July 21, 2014 by ctc77965o Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Hi Peter, Good point re the smoking. But the low oil pressure is still a worry, which might indicate there are two or more issues. I think your point re the oil way to the head is a possible cause of smoke. Of course having now switched to a Staaaaaaaaag (as Clarkson would say) I have left all these problems behind.....and exchanged them for a brand set of exciting, expensive and unknown problems. David. You could say twice as many head problems! Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peter Cobbold Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Peter, no need for a debate, two "great scientific minds" looked at the problem, analysed the results, came to a conclusion and postulated a theory within minutes of one another, job done so it's down the SU bar, no hang on further data has blown our theories out of the water!! So how about this one, those compression figures are rather high for new rings,not yet bedded in, almost as if the bores have been oiled, where do we get oil from?, I wonder if the oil control rings are not working properly, fitted incorrectly or just not very good, for preference I always use Deves Rings. The low oil pressure is definitely wrong and and needs to be corrected, oil pump, pressure relief valve and crank bearings all need double checking, and sooner rather than later. Cheers Rob Rob, (SU bar? - youve been reading the blog!!) Its the rate of oil loss thats so high. If its all being burned... then I cant really see it getting past rings that fast. If only some is being burned and the rest flung out somewhere else, as Dave asks, then we have two faults at once. I'm focused on the gasket- I wonder when the head was re-torqued ? If the oilway is spraying oil - some into the combustion chamber, some outside and some into the pushrod chamber then the lowish oil pressure might be explained too. Peter Edited July 21, 2014 by Peter Cobbold Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Willem Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Hi Whimbleball, Just curious, did you check your dipstick after refilling the right amount of oil?. From what i modestly understood compression is fine and spark plugs are clean. You mention BLUE smoke , burned oil gives black smoke. So the oil is not originating from the compression chambers. Oil loss is heavy under load and not when coasting after acceleration, good for the valve stem seals. ;-) I'm in with Peter, look for another place where oil can find it's way to the exhaust. The oil pressure is a concern when not in operating range, are the correct values mentioned in the brown "bible"? On the next run I would keep a close record of that. Since I am not a specialist and there are very few steep hills where I live, could the incline of a hill itself be of any influence?. Just some thoughts hope it helps willem Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peejay4A Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 I beg to differ Willem. Black smoke indicates an over rich fuel mixture whilst blue or blue/grey smoke indicates burning oil. White smoke indicates coolant leaking into the combustion chamber - or a new Pope. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Davidw Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 David. You could say twice as many head problems! Peter Excellent, Peter! :-) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alan Cochrane Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Peter I've been following this thread with interest. If your big end bearings/crankshaft were to blame you would get low OP at any engine condition. The previous, very worn engine in my GT6 had this terminal malady and would display 25psi at 2000rpm and the idiot light at tickover. I fitted an oil cooler and heavier oil which unsurprisingly failed to cure the problem-I was young and foolish then. Again if the oil pump was the culprit you would experience low OP in all conditions. A cylinder head gasket failure usually leads to a milky emulsion visible through the rocker cover filler cap caused by oil and water mixing.. The oil pressure relief valve sticking open would certainly show low oil pressure at tickover. How low I'm not sure but this wouldn't explain the massive oil consumption. No apparent leaks suggest an internal route to the exhaust. Could you have a crack between the cylinderhead oil gallery and one of the exhaust valves? The fact you don't have an oily plug is probably due to the fact that the excessive oil consumption is not constant. This would allow the plug to burn off the oil during periods (of near normal) running. It would be worth stopping and checking the plugs during a blue smoke period-this may indicate the source of one of your problems. Like the other members I think you have more than one problem-at least two at any rate! Keep us informed. Cheers Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wimbleball Posted July 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Thanks for the advice guys. The crank was reground when the head was done so the bearing shells should not be causing the low oil pressure. The head was retorqued last week. I agree this is probably 2 problems. not just one. When I put in the correct amount of oil the dip stick top mark was just covered. I think the next move is, as you say, drop the sump and investigate. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 You will find nowt apart from a suspect oil pump.I suspect rings not fitted right Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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