What have I got!?

[TPTHURLOW]

Hi, i'm quite new to TRs and have just joined the register. I recently bought what I thought was TR3a which was accident damaged and am in the process of restoring it. I am having problems identifying it as it has had the ID plates removed. I would like to know if it is a 2, 3 or 3a. Also does any one know if it is possible to get the original commission numbers from this info?

The car is a South African re-import.

The v5 states it was first registered in 1957.

The engine number is TS16646E

Gearbox TS16683

Number stamped on chassis is 224.

The rear floor is from an early car and it has no plinths for rear indicators but does have holes drilled for them.

The front panel when I bought the car was a badly damaged tr3a and it came with a new 3a front panel so I assumed it was a 3a.

The inner wings have holes for light recesses.

Any info would be appreciated,

Many thanks, Tom

[Malcolm Tatton]

Hi Tom,

 

Hope you enjoy your purchase!

 

My 1957 TR3 has chassis number just below TS20,000 and engine number at just over, so it's probably safe to say yours isn't a TR3a.

 

Mine also came with a wide mouth, which was fitted by the previous owner in the 1970s.

 

Sure that others will give you chapter and verse!

 

Malcolm

[Don Elliott]

Your engine and gearbox numbers are close together so these are probably correct (as in "original"). What with about 300 engines having been sold to Morgan, I would guess that your VIN or chassis number on the skuttle should be about TS 16350. I have some numbers of cars from TRSC (Triumph Register of Southern California) and the closest number before this is TS 15335 L (the L is for Left Hand Drive), listed as a small mouth TR3. This TR3 was built on January 4th, 1957.

 

On page 112 of Bill Piggott's book, he notes that the first TR3 built in 1957 was TS 14999 L so yours is definitely from early 1957.

 

BTW the number you quote 224 as stamped on the chassis (on the cross frame under the radiator) is probably Z24. The "Z" is supposedly the code for the manufacturer of the bare frame and others have said that the 2 = Feb and the 4 would indicate 1954 - but that doesn't make sense unless some previous owner changed the frame.

[vivdownunder]

Tom, that engine number is from a TR3 that would have been shipped to Durban as a CKD kit somewhere in the first quarter of 1957. Difficult to establish when it was actually stitched together. I'm not sure if CKD kit records are available to match an engine number with the car's TS commission number. Also, it might be difficult to prove the engine is original.

 

Anyhow, Durban assembled TR's had an additional commission plate riveted to the firewall. Is there any evidence in the form of rivet holes drilled 70mm apart horizontal and 30mm vertical just above the factory commission plate holes ?. The Durban plate was a black rectangle with only a car number stamped on it between 1 - circa 1050.

 

Don will be spot on about the number on the chassis being Z24. That's the numbering sequence from Sankeys (who made the chassis for S-T) representing engineering changes during production.

 

TR3's had no rear indicator plinths until late in production.

 

TR3A aprons were often substituted for small mouth aprons, either for repair or to make the car look like a newer model.

 

The inner wings are correct for TR2/3. TR3A's used shorter front indicators that only needed dimples in the inner wings.

 

The problem ahead is establishing a commission number for registration purposes.

 

Regards,

 

Viv.

[TPTHURLOW]

Thanks for all the info. The car is UK registered, It was shipped over in 2002 and I am the 3rd UK owner.

The number 224 came from the V5 which stated it was the chassis/VIN number, I have now wired brushed the plate on the chassis and it looks like it says Z240 but is hard to read.

The V5 also says it was declared manufactured in 1958 not 57 as I originally said. I'm not sure about holes for an additional ID plate, I need to have a closer look.

I am going to try and get more info from British motor heritage but am not sure if they will be able to tell me much if it was a CKD kit.

Now I need to decide whether to turn it back into a 3 or stick with the 3a apron etc I already have!

Tom

[Ashley James]

FWIW the 3 is prettier, rarer and more desirable. I know you're probably not planning to sell it, but if and when it might help fill the hole Mr Brown made on our pensions or whatever.

[Don Elliott]

I would agree with Ashley that the small mouth TR3 is a more valuable TR. You can finish it with the TR3A front valance in place till you locate and install a proper TR3 small mouth valance.

[vivdownunder]

Tom, providing the identity hasn't been deliberately changed, there's a way to tell if you have a 3 or 3A body.

 

3's had almost square commission plates with cut corners mounted beside the pedal box, Fixings were 4 x rivets spaced 80mm across x 60mm high. TR2 commission plates were the same size.

 

3A's had a smaller rectangular commission plate in the same place. Fixings were only 2 x rivets spaced 90mm across.

 

Regards,

 

Viv.

[billy l]

Tom, I own a 1957 TR3 ex-South-African car Comm no TS17082, Engine no TS 17539E (probably original), my car also displays the local Durban Commision plate which is fitted above the original Comm plate

and is plain aluminium and reads TR609, (some plates have Durban Motor Assemblies written on them) which simply means it was the 609th TR to be built in S A. My car was built circa Wednesday, 3rd April 1957, shipped to S A and not registered for road use until 1961. some of the cars were built and sat around not selling for years, they were still building up TR3A's in 1963. Reference the rear indicator plinths, at TS16473 the later plinth was fitted to certain markets possibly SA.

Mine has the later plinths but they may have been fitted later. One thing for sure is that nobody knows for sure!!!. Cheers Bill.

[TR7 Spider]

I have a 1956 TR3 in the states with a chassis number of Z24. What does the Z and the 24 stand for?

[mike ellis]

Tom,

 

Heritage can search on engine number but it costs more as more work is required. Bill Piggott can also supply similar information, see page 2 of TRaction.

 

Motor Assemblies is now Toyota but they did still hold some records from earlier times. It may be worth contacting them:

 

Toyota SA Manufacturing

PO Box 26070,

Isipingo Beach

4115

South Africa

 

Also be aware that not all cars were CKD, some were sent there fully built, the Heritage certificate should show this.

 

Mike

[vivdownunder]

TR7 Spider, as best known the Z is either the maker Sankey's allocated ID for TR chassis supplied to Standard-Triumph, or a centreline marker for repairs.

 

The numbers are thought to reflect engineering changes. eg added stiffening ribs to rear shocker mounts, change of brake pipe brackets for upgrade to front disc brakes, added brackets to the spring towers for change to split steering column, probable change of fuel line clip holes when the tank outlet was moved from the centre to one side etc.

 

Viv.

[TPTHURLOW]

Thanks again for all the info, I managed to find and get in touch with the 1st UK owner who had some paperwork including the import papers and the SA number plate. He even had a letter from Bill Piggott which confirmed that it was manufactured in 1957 Feb or March and shipped out to SA as a CKD.

Unfortunately I still do not have a commission/vin number. On the import papers it was put down as 1958224 which is clearly not right! Looks like i'll have to do a heritage search!

[TPTHURLOW]

I finally got around to sending my engine and gearbox number to British motor heritage as they can find the commission number from that info.......usually! This is the reply I received..

 

 

Thank you for ordering a Heritage Certificate for your TR3. Unfortunately we have been unable to trace your vehicle's build record with the engine number, therefore we are unable to produce a Heritage Certificate. I will therefore arrange for you to be refunded.

Unfortunately some of the early TR build records, which only exist on microfilm, are in such poor condition as to be rendered unreadable. This is because they were overexposed when the microfilms were produced.

 

Does anyone have any idea if I can get the cars ID from anywhere else?

[vivdownunder]

Authorities in SA might be able to provide a commission number if you quote the former registration number. Or if the body tags are still on the firewall above the battery, their numbers might be helpful. The upper one had an EB prefix and a number slightly higher than the commission number. The lower tag on TR3's typically had 6 numbers beginning with 9, which didn't relate to anything else on the car.

 

Or try Gerhard Vorster of Triumph Sports Car Club of Southern Africa. www.triumphclubsa.com

 

It appears the PO may have already used Bill P's trace service without striking gold.

 

Viv.

[Ian Vincent]

I finally got around to sending my engine and gearbox number to British motor heritage as they can find the commission number from that info.......usually! This is the reply I received..

 

 

Thank you for ordering a Heritage Certificate for your TR3. Unfortunately we have been unable to trace your vehicle's build record with the engine number, therefore we are unable to produce a Heritage Certificate. I will therefore arrange for you to be refunded.

Unfortunately some of the early TR build records, which only exist on microfilm, are in such poor condition as to be rendered unreadable. This is because they were overexposed when the microfilms were produced.

 

Does anyone have any idea if I can get the cars ID from anywhere else?

 

When I tried to purchase a H3eritage Certificate for my TR3a, they sent a similar reply. I subsequently saw the advert in the TRaction and contacted Bill Piggott who was able to find my car in his records. I suggest you try writing to Bill and include as much information as possible.

 

Rgds Ian

[Rodbr]

Further to Ians post I suggest that you include the "spurious" number on the import documents as it may be more accurate that you think!

[TPTHURLOW]

The body tags were also missing, I have no idea why someone would remove all the ID plates! Is there a way I could get these looked up as well? I will email the SA register, I have the SA number plate from when it was imported to the UK but have heard that SA cars get new number plates every few years so don't know if it will be much use? I will send Bill Piggot a letter also. I don't know if the engine is original to the frame anyway so even if I do get a ID from the engine number it my not be correct!!

[TPTHURLOW]

I've been in touch with the SA register, they were very helpful but unfortunately cannot find a record of my engine number (TS16646E) They did find a record of engine number TS16648E (two numbers away) and the corresponding commission number is TS16156 with TR538 as the local South African assembly number.

Can I extrapolate from this number that my commission number would be TS16158 or does it not work like that?

Tom

[johnhodges]

Tom

If your engine no. is two digits earlier, then your commission number would be TS16154?. I'm no expert, but if there is no existing record of TS16154, it would seem a fair enough assumption. Obviously somebody will point out that the engine in your car might have been a transplant, after all the first heart transplant was performed in South Africa. Can you get the build spec. for TS16154 and compare it what you know about your car?

[TPTHURLOW]

Yes my mistake, it would be TS16154. I will contact bill piggott and see if he can shed any light on that number

[billy l]

Tom I have sent you a PM.

[TPTHURLOW]

The following is from Billy and a SA club member

 

It is impossible to say that your car is TS16154. While commission and local assembly numbers follow in logical and chronological sequence, it appears that engines that had their own existing numbers, were unpacked and mated to a chassis in random fashion on the assembly line. I guess that at best you can expect your car's commission number to have been somewhere between TS16000 and TS17000.

 

Triumph TR2 production commenced in October 1955 and continued until October 1958. 978 units were built with job numbers from TR1 to TR978. Production was suspended due to poor sales many units were built up and stored on their wheels, awaiting buyers. They stood for many months. In feb1961 production recommenced and a further 72 units were built. these were numbers STR979-STR1050.and they were built from very old CKD packs, It seems that any records of the british motoring heritage will be inconclusive except in so far as indicating a ship date as a CKD to SA. Records were kept at Motor assemblies, primarily for the customs. There are no records that tie Commision (TS) number to the local TR job no. No records were kept of engine and chassis numbers. It is thus almost impossible to know what engine and Commision (TS) number would have been original.'

 

So the mystery continues!

However I am now doubting that the engine is correct to the car anyway! It is RHD and when I bought it the wiper motor had been bodged to fit on the left of the bulkhead. The motor is an early one with no pillars and a rubber mount used up to TS12567. I can see where it would have mounted to the RH side but couldn't work out how it would fit there as the master cylinder assembly is in the way (the girling type with separate reservoir) However if the car originally had the lockheed system up to TS13045 then it would have fitted.

 

Interestingly I gave the SA register the name of a previous SA owner (he had made a plate with his name on and put this where the commission number should be!) and they found a match with an owner of a TR2!

 

My guess this was an TR2 or early TR3 which sat around for a while and had various updates added such as girling brakes and a 3a front panel as well as a later engine.

 

Either way sadly I will never no its actual commission number!

Tom

[Stephen T]

Tom,

 

I own TR3 chassis number TS16156, I know it was assembled in 1957 but not the month, do you know which month TS16158 was assembled?

[TPTHURLOW]

February or March, British motor heritage might be able to tell you exactly if they have the build info but it will cost you £50 I think.

Tom