kiwi-jim Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) I will soon be starting on the job of replacing the floors and sills on my 62 tr4. I have decided to do this job myself. I have read up on plenty of info but still have a few questions, as some of the info seems to conflict. I currently have the tub separated from the chassis, but I can easily place it back on the chassis. The chassis is stripped however, waiting to be painted. Questions 1. Should tub be on or off the chassis 2. Do you cut out and replace the floor first ( on one side) then do the inner and outer sills/. Or the sills first then the floor 3. When taking out the rusted floor, it would seem easier to me to basically cut most of the floor away and then attack the original spot welds rather than try to unstick everything with the floor in place. Right /wrong?? 4. There will be a bit of edge replacement required in various places where the floors and sills attach, areas such as the where the foot well attaches to the floor, and at the base of the B posts With areas rusted like this does that change your suggested method of attack. 5. What is the best method of separating all the original spot welds, There are hundreds of them if you need to drill them , any easier/ better method anyone has used in the past. Any other suggestions appreciated, I will be doing one side at a time, and I expect this will take me awhile Thanks in advance. Jim Edited June 22, 2012 by kiwi-jim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 Jim, When I did my TR3a I did all the major repairs (floor & sills) with the tub on the chassis. I subsequently removed the tub so that I could turn it over and finish the welding etc and when it went back onto the newly shot blasted and painted chassis - it all lined up I didn't replace all of the inner sill, there were a couple of areas that were a bit dodgy and I repaired them locally. I removed the floors by drilling out all the spot welds that I could get to easily and then chiselled out the few remaining spot welds with a sharp bolster chisel. My floors had so many holes in them that it was fairly easy to remove large areas by ripping out chunks with a set of grips. If bits of edge needed replacing, I just cut around them with a dremel and made up a small insert which I fitted before the new floor went in. I used a basic cobalt bit for drilling out the spot welds - it worked for me. I tried alternative broaching tools but they didn't last long. The cobalt bits stayed sharp for a long time and could be (carefully) resharpened. be very careful doing one side at a time that you don't end up with distortion. better to cut out both floors - making sure the chassis is well supported on axle stands in four places and tack your new bits on equally on each side making sure it all stays square. Rgds Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kiwifrog Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) Jim When I did a TR4 a few years ago now I did it on the chassis. Same as the 3 brace the doors and do one side at a time. The repro outer sills were not brilliant at that time, I actually managed to get one used sill from a US TR6 and that was a brilliant fit, the repro on the other side took a lot of work to get "acceptable" including having to jack up the bottom center section. When taking out the rusted floor, it would seem easier to me to basically cut most of the floor away and then attack the original spot welds rather than try to unstick everything with the floor in place. Right /wrong?? I have used that method in the past and find it preferable as it avoids possible damage to good sections that you want to keep which may happen if you try to remove entire panels Fitting up doors and wings several times as you go along to make sure of the gaps and also to be sure they will actually fit into the indents on the sills is also a good idea. The floors also provide the return for the sills I actually kept the origonal floors and remade the return to close the sills. Inner sills are easy to fit. The easiest and tidiest method I have used to remove spots is with a spot weld drill not the cutter type but one that looks a bit like a wood bit. I used about 4 or 5 on the 3A and about the same on the 4. I have also found a decent chisel also is a good aid for breaking some of the spots where it is impossible to get a drill but you have to be very careful not to tare the surrounding metal. I am sure Stuart will give you the correct methods shortly Looking forward to some photos Cheers Alan Edited June 22, 2012 by Kiwifrog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kiwi-jim Posted June 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Thanks guys, Started the process yesterday, got on floor side all unstitched and almost ready to remove, it's going to be an interesting process I think. Will look to put up some photos at some point. Any other thought or words of advise appreciated Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Jim I will try and post some pics tomorrow, just a bit busy at the mo. Best investment you could make is to buy a good spot welder. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kiwi-jim Posted June 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 (edited) Thanks stuart, I have a mig. I did wonder about a spot welder, and whether we could hire one when the time comes, Look forward to whatever photos etc you have stuart. We organised a rental in padstow for October so closer to the time I will email you and if it suits we will come through to Turo. To catch up and shout you a beer. Heres a link to photos so you can see what I have to do https://picasaweb.google.com/104400413966126498451/62TR4Restoration02?authkey=Gv1sRgCMXh7p2f7ezTyQE# Cheers Edited June 24, 2012 by kiwi-jim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 Jim you have large amounts of pictures on email. Look forward to catching up with you for a beer in October. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 Jim, When I did my TR3a I did all the major repairs (floor & sills) with the tub on the chassis. I subsequently removed the tub so that I could turn it over and finish the welding etc and when it went back onto the newly shot blasted and painted chassis - it all lined up I didn't replace all of the inner sill, there were a couple of areas that were a bit dodgy and I repaired them locally. I removed the floors by drilling out all the spot welds that I could get to easily and then chiselled out the few remaining spot welds with a sharp bolster chisel. My floors had so many holes in them that it was fairly easy to remove large areas by ripping out chunks with a set of grips. If bits of edge needed replacing, I just cut around them with a dremel and made up a small insert which I fitted before the new floor went in. I used a basic cobalt bit for drilling out the spot welds - it worked for me. I tried alternative broaching tools but they didn't last long. The cobalt bits stayed sharp for a long time and could be (carefully) resharpened. be very careful doing one side at a time that you don't end up with distortion. better to cut out both floors - making sure the chassis is well supported on axle stands in four places and tack your new bits on equally on each side making sure it all stays square. Rgds Ian I took the same approach with my TR3A as Ian but I used a spot weld bit to drill out the spot welds that didnt just pull apart. That drill bit worked pretty well but it is very easy to drill all the way through both panels as you tend to keep going until the spot weld is free even though you have broken though 80 percent of it already. In many cases the edges of the tub that the floor was welded to was either gone or was too rusted to salvage. Many of the spot welds were rusted or done poorly at the factory and yielded to a sharp chisel and a hammer. I sacrificed a thin wood chisel for that task. If the spot weld does not yield readily dont keep hammering as that will likely tear the parent metal. These need to be drilled out. I found it easier to cut the floor once I had freed a section. It made the task more managable and I had no reason to save the floor. I did harvest the cage nuts off the old floor though as the new floors didnt come with them ($60 a side floor pans from an eBay seller) and the new cage nuts are a bit smaller than the originals. I dont have a spot welder but it would have been handy for the locations where I could get the tool in. I plug welded it which is tedious but is a viable alternative. In my case few if any of the plug welds are visible once the tub is trimmed out. Looks like you have quite a project ahead of you. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kiwifrog Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 (edited) Quite a project Jim. It looks like it has been attacked by a bunch of incontinent pigeons ! ( they cant be welds surely!!!) If it comes up half as good as your 3A it will be a cracker Alan Edited June 24, 2012 by Kiwifrog Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kiwi-jim Posted June 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2012 Thanks guys, yes it's looking like quite a job, stuart has sent me heaps of photos, and after looking at his work I am definitely wondering whether I should let an expert tackle this rather than me bodgy thru it. But I want to give this part a go myself so we will try and then see what it all looks like. Based on some of the previous repair jobs done on the old girl, I don't think I can do much worse. Cheers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlanT Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 I did all this and made a major mistake which cost me loads of time to overcome. I put the floor-pans onto the chassis first. This is GOOD. Then I put the back end in place and connected to the pans. WRONG. You got to put the front half on first. Then hang the doors on it. Now you can do the back half and position it so the doors meet up correctly. The front half plus doors is very heavy and hard to move about so lining up the doors is awful if you do it like I did. Look at cars on show, always you can see that door fit is a problem. Sills and stuff can fit to doors. You cant make a door fit to a sill unless you cut bits off it or add bits on. So while you got it all in bits you have an opportunity to work it to optimise the door fit. Al Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kiwi-jim Posted July 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 Thanks al I haven't decided yet whether to completely split the tub or not, I. Now have the new floors and sills here in NZ and have removed the floor on one side while currently the inner and outer sills are still attached, I have a bit of work to do around the gearbox tunnel cover as that was munted from underneath somehow. And the base of the b pillar and firewall need new metal put in to these areas as well. Currently my plan and thinking is to fix the footwell area and base of the b Pillar then tack in the floor on that side and then remove the inner and outer sills and replace them. First up though I have to skill up a bit more on my welding skills And on Stuart's advise I am searching for a spot welder that might be affordable to use. Cheers jim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlanT Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 You wont find a spot welder will reach many places you want to weld. Also its hard to get"factory grade" spots. You get too much heat or not enough. Its OK on brand-new metal, clean and the same thickness and no paint. But all this introduces variability thats hard to handle. 80% of mine was done with MIG by plugging. This tolerates all the above. You punch holes in a flange with a tool and clamp the flange to the other part. Use a clamp that bridges over the punching. Use the clamp to support the MIG nozzle. Hit it right in the centre of the punching with enough current to push the wire right through. Wiggle the nozzle just a little and a round pool will build up. Stop before you get a big bump. Do em about 1.5 inch apart but do 1 in 3 and then come back to fill in. You can grind em flat if its a high vis area. Otherwise just smooth the bumps a bit. I described this a bit quick. Ask if it aint clear. Al. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 You wont find a spot welder will reach many places you want to weld. Also its hard to get"factory grade" spots. You get too much heat or not enough. Its OK on brand-new metal, clean and the same thickness and no paint. But all this introduces variability thats hard to handle. 80% of mine was done with MIG by plugging. This tolerates all the above. You punch holes in a flange with a tool and clamp the flange to the other part. Use a clamp that bridges over the punching. Use the clamp to support the MIG nozzle. Hit it right in the centre of the punching with enough current to push the wire right through. Wiggle the nozzle just a little and a round pool will build up. Stop before you get a big bump. Do em about 1.5 inch apart but do 1 in 3 and then come back to fill in. You can grind em flat if its a high vis area. Otherwise just smooth the bumps a bit. I described this a bit quick. Ask if it aint clear. Al. I have three spot welders and varying different arms and shaped tips and I can assure you there is very few places they wont reach and with experience and proper care of the tips then you can produce as good if not better than the original factory spot welds. In fact having taken a lot of shells apart over the years you would be surprised how many of the original factory welds hadnt taken. I also tend to do my spots closer together than the factory did which makes the shell a lot stiffer. Plug welding with a MIG is OK provided you have a big enough hole in the outer panel that you are welding through otherwise its all too easy for the weld to "bridge" the hole and hence do absolutely nothing. I have seen this far too many times on previously repaired panels.(once removed a complete "B" post back section that was only held in with some sealer applied over the edges, all the plug welds had failed to penetrate at all.) Also all the extra grinding to tidy up weakens the integrity of the weld and takes too long as well as the associated problems of grinding metal being left in and around joints ready to go rusty further down the line. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AlanT Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 The "usual " punching tool makes a 3/16 hole which is a bit small and easy to bridge. I used two or three punchings in line and travelled the arc along the slot. Mostly I had wire going right through both parts afterwards I have a spotter too. It got a lot of use on stuff that was not actually fitted to the car yet. Panels and brackets and such. But when I came to join up stuff like sills there always seemed to be something in the way. I dont have a big array of arms and tips. Sometimes I used spots when lining up and then some MIG after to make really sure. Al. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Franciscus A Douma Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 Franciscus here, I have a rebuild job on 1963 TR4, Need to replace complete bottom of car. Got new floors, inner and outer sills with all needed small metal parts. I have 30 years experience in auto collision but never replaced complete bottom of car. Tub is removed from frame, doors would not fit good due to rotten bottom. Should I replace one side at a time or is it better to separate all at one time for better alignment of doors? Thanks, Franciscus A Douma Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 9 hours ago, Franciscus A Douma said: Franciscus here, I have a rebuild job on 1963 TR4, Need to replace complete bottom of car. Got new floors, inner and outer sills with all needed small metal parts. I have 30 years experience in auto collision but never replaced complete bottom of car. Tub is removed from frame, doors would not fit good due to rotten bottom. Should I replace one side at a time or is it better to separate all at one time for better alignment of doors? Thanks, Franciscus A Douma I would cut the shell in half and then get the chassis straight and all repairs done then get it up on stands sat dead level then fit floors with the mounting brackets and then fit them to the chassis using the body mounting pads to level them up, spot weld the inner sills to the floors and then clean up the lower sections of the front and rear of the shell removing the remains of the floors and sills and then fit front and rear sections to the chassis loosely then fit the doors and bring the two sections together so you get your door gaps correct, brace the door gaps with a piece of box section between A and B post on the inside so you can still utilise the doors and then properly fit front and rear sections to the floors and fit the outer sills. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Malbaby Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 IMHO...Some suggestions... You need to FULLY brace [preferably with steel] the A and B pillars in their correct positions before you do anything. I would do one side at a time so as to retain as much of the original structural integrity as possible. Ditch the aftermarket inner sill and fold up new one in thicker [stronger] steel sheet and a little larger in dimensions [easy to trim the bottom of the inner sill later]. The inner sill will be your base for the structure for fitting the floor and outer sill. Do not assume that the aftermarket outer sill will fit correctly. You will need to temporarily refit the door and wings to ensure correct alignment of the outer sill. etc...etc.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
glasgow4a Posted October 11, 2020 Report Share Posted October 11, 2020 Ian very interested in how you went about sharpening cobalt spot weld drills as i have just bought new before, cheers Ian. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 On 10/11/2020 at 3:20 PM, glasgow4a said: Ian very interested in how you went about sharpening cobalt spot weld drills as i have just bought new before, cheers Ian. I just touched them onto a bench grinder being careful to retain the central pip and also don’t get it too hot. Rgds Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytr5 Posted October 24, 2020 Report Share Posted October 24, 2020 This worked for me. Took a lot of trial fitting before welding up. All good fun though (what else could we do) Regards Harry Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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