KnightsT Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 ... that my car was once fitted with overdrive. I have recently acquired a sad and rusty 66 IRS for restoration and have started the process of removing a few 'combustibles' in the cockpit before tackling some major body panel welding on the sills/floors while the chassis (which seems ok from what I can see) can act as a jig. Anyway I digress ..... I find that a) I have a third 'stalk' on the column, on the right behind the indicator stalk, what looks like an old Lucas relay (see photo below) under the dash with separate loom attached to said stalk, and c) some sort of switch/sensor on top of the gearbox not connected to anything (see other photo below). Importantly (and disappointingly) though d) there is no overdrive on the gearbox!! Looking at some wiring diagrams it does seem to fit if this is indeed a relay (I can see LUCAS' on the side but no other numbers etc.) First off I thought it was a flasher unit, but then I found a standard flasher in a neat little socket in the passenger footwell. Anyway confirmation and any guidance re reuse would be appreciated. I do plan to re-install an o/d so these various remants will come in very useful, but I just want to be sure what I've got. Any idea why the gearbox would have the 'switch' but no o/d - or is the switch on all gearboxes? How does this unit connect relative to the solenoid on the o/d unit? These cars weren't fitted with reverse gear sensors for lights were they? Would it have been straightforward for a previous owner to just remove a broken o/d and refit the basic rear shaft assembly, or is it more likely just a replacement box? These and other questions ...... The car was bought very much as a non-runner (never ran in last 20 years from what I can tell) so I will have a few more questions in the coming months I'm sure. I have completed full 'body-off' restorations on 2 completely crackered Morris Travs and a worse 66 S2a Landrover, so I have some experience of restorations in general, but I am green as grass where Triumphs are concerned. Have enjoyed and learnt much from scanning the forum already. If it's as useful as the MMOC and S2C ones then it will be invaluable. Mick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tthomson Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 Hi Mick, The third stalk switch, wiring and relay are for an overdrive. (Hold onto that relay, it is difficult to find quality replacements). It looks to me that the switch on the gearbox is for overdrive, but I am surprised that there is only one switch. It could be that some previous owners have replaced the gearbox with a non-overdrive version, but separately changed the control unit (with the gearbox switch), for an earlier version. A single gearbox switch was more common on earlier TRs. The TR4A with overdrive typically had two gearbox switches. Wiring for overdrive, and solenoid, is a relatively simple task and you appear to have most of the wiring already. In general TR gearboxes did not have reversing switches, but these can be retrofitted. The switches are relatively easy to obtain and you just need a decent M16 die set, (and a suitable drill for the hole). The three raised circular patches on the top of the gearbox control unit are for the overdrive and reversing switches to be fitted. I hope this has helped. TT ... that my car was once fitted with overdrive.I have recently acquired a sad and rusty 66 IRS for restoration and have started the process of removing a few 'combustibles' in the cockpit before tackling some major body panel welding on the sills/floors while the chassis (which seems ok from what I can see) can act as a jig. Anyway I digress ..... I find that a) I have a third 'stalk' on the column, on the right behind the indicator stalk, what looks like an old Lucas relay (see photo below) under the dash with separate loom attached to said stalk, and c) some sort of switch/sensor on top of the gearbox not connected to anything (see other photo below). Importantly (and disappointingly) though d) there is no overdrive on the gearbox!! Looking at some wiring diagrams it does seem to fit if this is indeed a relay (I can see LUCAS' on the side but no other numbers etc.) First off I thought it was a flasher unit, but then I found a standard flasher in a neat little socket in the passenger footwell. Anyway confirmation and any guidance re reuse would be appreciated. I do plan to re-install an o/d so these various remants will come in very useful, but I just want to be sure what I've got. Any idea why the gearbox would have the 'switch' but no o/d - or is the switch on all gearboxes? How does this unit connect relative to the solenoid on the o/d unit? These cars weren't fitted with reverse gear sensors for lights were they? Would it have been straightforward for a previous owner to just remove a broken o/d and refit the basic rear shaft assembly, or is it more likely just a replacement box? These and other questions ...... The car was bought very much as a non-runner (never ran in last 20 years from what I can tell) so I will have a few more questions in the coming months I'm sure. I have completed full 'body-off' restorations on 2 completely crackered Morris Travs and a worse 66 S2a Landrover, so I have some experience of restorations in general, but I am green as grass where Triumphs are concerned. Have enjoyed and learnt much from scanning the forum already. If it's as useful as the MMOC and S2C ones then it will be invaluable. Mick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Mick, This is rather odd! There are 3 selector rods inside the cover of a TR gearbox, the leftmost for reverse gear, the centre for 3rd/4th and the rightmost for 1st/2nd. Each isolator switch has to be located directly above the appropriate selector rod. On the earlier cars, with overdrive on 4th (top) only, the single switch is located on the centre line (fore/aft) of the cover. Later on, with overdrive on 2/3/4, a second switch was mounted to the right of the centre line (for 2nd gear operation). The switch in the photo appears to be over the leftmost rod, so I think it would be for a reversing light. The bosses cast into the top cover for the overdrive isolator switches, are visible further forward and to the right (north-east) of the existing switch (3rd/4th) and further back and further to the right (south-east) of the existing switch (2nd). Whether the selector rods have actuator arms fitted with the necessary cams to operate the switches (which could be inserted into these other two bosses as described by Tony), could be determined only by removing the top cover and having a look. The more I look at this photo, the more convinced I become that this is not a TR gearbox at all (what, for example, are those two bolts on the lower left of the top cover? - they do not exist in the photos of TR2/3 or TR4 gearboxes in my Workshop Manuals) - but I'm too lazy to crawl over all the stuff in our shed to reach my spare gearbox and I am not going to crawl under the TR, either! Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tthomson Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Hi Mick, Ian, Ian is right about the switch - it is a reversing switch. (I just checked on my TR4A control cover, which is conveniently visible in my garage). Mine has two overdrive switches in the other two locations. (Waiting for me to fit the reversing switch). The screws shown are as my TR4A so no concerns there. (8 in total to hold the control cover onto the gearbox) The odd thing is the wiring, (shown separately). The colours of the wires and the shape of the harness are for an overdrive unit. TT Mick,This is rather odd! There are 3 selector rods inside the cover of a TR gearbox, the leftmost for reverse gear, the centre for 3rd/4th and the rightmost for 1st/2nd. Each isolator switch has to be located directly above the appropriate selector rod. On the earlier cars, with overdrive on 4th (top) only, the single switch is located on the centre line (fore/aft) of the cover. Later on, with overdrive on 2/3/4, a second switch was mounted to the right of the centre line (for 2nd gear operation). The switch in the photo appears to be over the leftmost rod, so I think it would be for a reversing light. The bosses cast into the top cover for the overdrive isolator switches, are visible further forward and to the right (north-east) of the existing switch (3rd/4th) and further back and further to the right (south-east) of the existing switch (2nd). Whether the selector rods have actuator arms fitted with the necessary cams to operate the switches (which could be inserted into these other two bosses as described by Tony), could be determined only by removing the top cover and having a look. The more I look at this photo, the more convinced I become that this is not a TR gearbox at all (what, for example, are those two bolts on the lower left of the top cover? - they do not exist in the photos of TR2/3 or TR4 gearboxes in my Workshop Manuals) - but I'm too lazy to crawl over all the stuff in our shed to reach my spare gearbox and I am not going to crawl under the TR, either! Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 The wiring loom you show is for an overdrive. See the relay which is in my 1858 TR3A. This is the original unit that came with the car new. The top of the gearbox is not from an eary TR. They all had a fill hole with a dip-stick to the top right hand side as on mine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 The wiring loom you show is for an overdrive. See the relay which is in my 1858 TR3A. This is the original unit that came with the car new. The top of the gearbox is not from an eary TR. They all had a fill hole with a dip-stick to the top right hand side as on mine. How about that.. no synchro on 1st but you get a dipstick to check the oil level, they thought of everything back in 1858.. Welcome to the forum Mick. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Stan - I know of more than one TR owner who has removed the top shifter assembly cover from his late TR and drilled a hole like all TRs from 1953 to about 1960 to use the top as a fill hole. They also fabricate or obtain the dip-stick which allows me to check the oil level in my gearbox with overdrive. My TR3A came like this with the hole cut in the tunnel above the dip-stick / filler hole. But they also had to cut a hole in the tunnel and plug it with a large rubber plug. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Stan - I know of more than one TR owner who has removed the top shifter assembly cover from his late TR and drilled a hole like all TRs from 1953 to about 1960 to use the top as a fill hole. They also fabricate or obtain the dip-stick which allows me to check the oil level in my gearbox with overdrive. My TR3A came like this with the hole cut in the tunnel above the dip-stick / filler hole. But they also had to cut a hole in the tunnel and plug it with a large rubber plug. You wonder if the elimination of things like the tranny oil level dipstick and the diff drain plug on the TR6 was a feat of engineering that removed the need or a feat of financial expediency designed to shave a few cents off the construction. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 The dipstick/filler hole was very convenient on my TR2, but I think that the scuttle brace and differnet design of heater on the TR4 would make access rather difficult for all cars after the TR3A - and it was cheaper for Triumph to provide the filler hole on the left! Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pete cox Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 ... that my car was once fitted with overdrive.I have recently acquired a sad and rusty 66 IRS for restoration and have started the process of removing a few 'combustibles' in the cockpit before tackling some major body panel welding on the sills/floors while the chassis (which seems ok from what I can see) can act as a jig. Anyway I digress ..... I find that a) I have a third 'stalk' on the column, on the right behind the indicator stalk, what looks like an old Lucas relay (see photo below) under the dash with separate loom attached to said stalk, and c) some sort of switch/sensor on top of the gearbox not connected to anything (see other photo below). Importantly (and disappointingly) though d) there is no overdrive on the gearbox!! Looking at some wiring diagrams it does seem to fit if this is indeed a relay (I can see LUCAS' on the side but no other numbers etc.) First off I thought it was a flasher unit, but then I found a standard flasher in a neat little socket in the passenger footwell. Anyway confirmation and any guidance re reuse would be appreciated. I do plan to re-install an o/d so these various remants will come in very useful, but I just want to be sure what I've got. Any idea why the gearbox would have the 'switch' but no o/d - or is the switch on all gearboxes? How does this unit connect relative to the solenoid on the o/d unit? These cars weren't fitted with reverse gear sensors for lights were they? Would it have been straightforward for a previous owner to just remove a broken o/d and refit the basic rear shaft assembly, or is it more likely just a replacement box? These and other questions ...... The car was bought very much as a non-runner (never ran in last 20 years from what I can tell) so I will have a few more questions in the coming months I'm sure. I have completed full 'body-off' restorations on 2 completely crackered Morris Travs and a worse 66 S2a Landrover, so I have some experience of restorations in general, but I am green as grass where Triumphs are concerned. Have enjoyed and learnt much from scanning the forum already. If it's as useful as the MMOC and S2C ones then it will be invaluable. Mick Its highly likely the original o/d box was removed,probably because the o/d stopped working.They do fetch good money so maybe it just got sold off.No reason to remove the switch and wiring.The box requires a complete conversion, and is then a straight swap.You could convert your existing box but would need the correct mainshaft,an adaptor plate and an overdrive,The cheapest source for these is a complete unit fron a 2000/2500 saloon but there are complications.If you want me to go further,let me know pcox@moss-europe.co.uk or 01527821879 or via forum, but its not a short answer.Peter Cox Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 (edited) Hi Peter Welcome to the forum but an answering machine? 01527821879 Regards Neil Edited March 31, 2009 by ntc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianC Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Hi PeterWelcome to the forum Regards Neil You beat me to it! Nice to have an acknowledged expert in our company. Slowly, slowly, the Forum membership is becoming like 'Friends Reunited'. Just a few more long-suffering TR enthusiasts and early TR Register members and the Forum may even attain respect amongst the remaining sceptics. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 That will be Pete lining up work for his retirement Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 (edited) That will be Pete lining up work for his retirement Stuart. We will see,I thought there were rules regarding advertising Neil Edited March 31, 2009 by ntc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Fact is that Pete Cox has re-built more gearboxes than most of the rest of us put together (I'm talking of hundreds, not tens). And few know more about the technicalities of TRs - he has, after all, been playing with them for well over 40 years. If he is offering to help people (and the prices he quotes are extraordinarily good), should we deny members the opportunity to benefit? After all, Marko (hope I have got the correct name - apologies if not) has been doing just this on the Forum for quite some time. Like Brian, I welcome the fact that an even better-informed Old Fart has added his thoughts to our Forum, and I look forward to Pete continuing to do so. Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR 2100 Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Pete, Yep - welcome to the Forum from another O F. Pete Cox has re-built more gearboxes than most of the rest of us put together (I'm talking of hundreds, not tens). Pete was well into the hundreds when he did mine and that was over 30 years ago. Let's say 1000s and then some, and that's first hand. It was Pete, I'm sure, who first realised the weakness of the needle roller bearings on the layshaft and devleped roller bearings to solve the problem. AlanR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 There's nothing in the Forum Terms & Rules regarding advertising . . . . http://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?act=boardrules If we're referring to TR related goods or services, what's the problem ? Mobile phones or Viagra - a different matter ! In any case, there's been enough 'advertorial' for major suppliers in TR Action over the years - as press releases and as technical articles. And what's wrong with that ? Isn't it all part of preserving the marque TR ? Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodri Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 I totally agree Alec- there is a difference between a person just advertising his goods for sale , and a person offering help and advice and the advertising is not the main reason for the posting. We have other traders on here giving advice and, to me, it is most welcome. Rod Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 I welcome input from any expert. I'm still learning about these cars. I seem to remember that I met Pete Cox at a mid-week Birmingham Group meeting about 1990 in Halesowen. Is that possible ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 (edited) There's nothing in the Forum Terms & Rules regarding advertising . . . . http://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?act=boardrules If we're referring to TR related goods or services, what's the problem ? Mobile phones or Viagra - a different matter ! In any case, there's been enough 'advertorial' for major suppliers in TR Action over the years - as press releases and as technical articles. And what's wrong with that ? Isn't it all part of preserving the marque TR ? Cheers, Alec Hi Alec I was the first to welcome Pete to the forum his knowledge is well known and great to have him onboard, in another post of his he was quoteing prices for rebuilt diff's etc, this seem's to make the rules hard to understand as Marko has had post's deleted just for showing the services he can provide, Please explain Regards Neil Edited April 1, 2009 by ntc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 Hi Neil, I'm sorry, I haven't a clue . . . . But you have a good point, as ever. I used to have reservations about commercial interests using this forum, but we all evolve views through experience and I really can't see a problem now - always providing that commercial interests are upfront about their position. Allen Forster is presumably the man to whom your question should be addressed - certainly not me, I have nothing to do with the administration of the forum, let alone policy. Meanwhile, like you, I'm only too pleased to see Pete Cox contributing. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
marko Posted April 1, 2009 Report Share Posted April 1, 2009 I would never be so blatant to say that we do gearbox, diff and fast road engines amongst other general TR servicing in Norfolk / Suffolk / Essex and the Home Counties - or that we have more than 60 years of TR experience - that would criminal and surely against the Forum rules! - you get me so wrong!!! But seriously, some TR businesses have grown out of a genuine love of the TR Marque (pun intended) not out of greedy profiteering… If some of this knowledge can be passed on - then that must be good for everyone surely? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KnightsT Posted April 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Well it seems I get my questions answered - in one case by someone clearly held in the highest regard, and in the process re-introduce some old friends. A good day all round! I will return to the subject once the shell welding is finished and the shell is off the body. Once the engine and gearbox are then off and I am able to better assess their state I will try and then decide whether to try and recon them myself (v. unlikely where the gearbox is concerned) or to 'out-source', as the trendies say. I really would like to go the more authentic 'A' type o/d route, but I talked to a chap at a stand at the Triumph show at Stoneleigh who suggested a recon'd 2500 box with 'J' type could be had with the necessary mods to fit much cheaper. There is a rusty 2500 with o/d (well the logo on the boot!) in a farmer's yard just down the road - might have a word. We shall see. Least I now have a better idea what I have, if not why I have it! Oh yes, the Comm No has the 'O' suffix at the end so I guess that confirms it was overdrive fitted. The Paint no (26) also shows it was Wedgwood Blue with a Midnight Blue trim (16) - it is now a rusty shade of dark blue, so a respray was done at some point. Shame really because I don't really like the light blue colour, so it will probably change again. Was there a dark blue option in 1966? More later .. and thanks Mick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 Well it seems I get my questions answered - in one case by someone clearly held in the highest regard, and in the process re-introduce some old friends. A good day all round! I will return to the subject once the shell welding is finished and the shell is off the body. Once the engine and gearbox are then off and I am able to better assess their state I will try and then decide whether to try and recon them myself (v. unlikely where the gearbox is concerned) or to 'out-source', as the trendies say. I really would like to go the more authentic 'A' type o/d route, but I talked to a chap at a stand at the Triumph show at Stoneleigh who suggested a recon'd 2500 box with 'J' type could be had with the necessary mods to fit much cheaper. There is a rusty 2500 with o/d (well the logo on the boot!) in a farmer's yard just down the road - might have a word. We shall see. Least I now have a better idea what I have, if not why I have it! Oh yes, the Comm No has the 'O' suffix at the end so I guess that confirms it was overdrive fitted. The Paint no (26) also shows it was Wedgwood Blue with a Midnight Blue trim (16) - it is now a rusty shade of dark blue, so a respray was done at some point. Shame really because I don't really like the light blue colour, so it will probably change again. Was there a dark blue option in 1966? More later .. and thanks Mick You could try Royal Blue, code 56. Best colour of the lot. (not that I am biased ) Stuart Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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