explosive water

[dpb]

After many trials and tribulations, I sort of fixed my overheating problem, but I am left with the water so forcefully entering the overflow bottle that it comes spurting out of the top of the bottle - I guess around the pipe or through the breather hole. And this then means I lose water over a short period of time and then it starts to overheat again.

 

Is this normal? I guess not. What could be the cause? High pressure somewhere I guess.

 

I've put in a new radiator and a new cap of the correct pressure, and it still does it.

 

Going on a long trip to France soon, and I have my fears.

 

Cheers

Dave

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[littlejim]

Whoo!

Blown head gasket would be high on the list, and important to eliminate early in the piece.

Can you get a compression check done to see if one of the cylinders is leaking? Some places can also detect traces of combustion products in the water for you.

 

If the head gasket is OK, there could be a blockage in the water passages in the head or in the thermostat.

When I had a similar experience it was the head gasket at fault.

[RogerH]

Hi Dave,

have you got the correct rad cap - two seals. Top seal seals the system, bottom seal allows flow to overflow bottle.

Are you overfilling the rad to start with. Have the water about half way up the header tank. This allows the water to expand upon heating and does not flow needlessly into the overflow bottle.

 

Make sure the end of the pipe in the overflow bottle is always immersed.

 

Roger

[dpb]

hi chaps

 

I do believe I have the right rad cap ( it was doing it with the old one too). Overfilling could be an issue. I did have problems previously with a blocked rad and also blocked water passages (there may still be some water passage clearing to be done I guess).

 

I'll have another clean out.

 

This week is TT week in the Isle of Man, where I recently moved to: lots of bikes, not many classic cars out at the moment.

[billg]

Try running with the cap off to see when running the engine if there is turbulence in the radiator water caused by engine gases being leaked from a blown head gasket.

 

Also are you seeing water in the exhaust and if really bad emulsified oil in the sump and rocker cover.

 

I've just changed a head gasket on my TR3A and see to have lost my ability to get good slow running but It ll get sorted sooner or later.

 

If you pull off the head remember to reset the tappets as some gaskets are thinner or thicker than hour old one

 

Bill G@ NB

[Geko]

Remembering that older epic thread of yours it would be a miracle if the head gasket is not blown but there probably other niceties attached to it such as cracks in the head or uneven liners protrusion...

[dpb]

Excellent, maybe not going to France in it after all. I didn't have emulsified oil or water in the exhaust as far as I recall. Unfortunately I can't do much checking right at the moment, as the car is in England and I am in the IOM.

 

Mmmm, I think I'll drive something else on holiday, and just bring the 4A back here for loving attention (when given permission in-between sorting out a million jobs on the new house).

 

Cheers chaps.

[dpb]

A much later update..

 

Didn't go to France in it, went in a Renault Clio instead - nearly 3 weeks, 1500 miles and no problems.

Finally got round to testing the TR4A now. Had a few runs where it overheated, and a couple where it was normal most of the time. Just done a compression test- 155, 160,160,160. Nice brown plugs too.

 

So, I am ruling out the head gasket for now, and currently thinking its a blockage. Back to flushing it out a few times.

 

Dave

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[dpb]

and a newer update. Just put the car away and got lots of water out of the exhaust with some oil (all over my other car parked in the driveway)... so back to the headgasket theory?

 

Any suggestions?

[peejay4A]

Depending upon just how much came out if you just started it up from cold and on the choke it wouldn't be that unusual to get some spattering.

[RogerH]

Hi Dave,

your local garage can test the rad water for combustion products. This may give more evidence to fail gasket.

There is also a leak down test. I think you check the time taken for the compression pressure to fall from max pressure to a certain point for all pots.

 

Roger

[dpb]

Spent the day swapping the thermostat, flushing the engine and rad with water. Thermostat opened ok when running up the engine and filling with water.

 

Went for a 20 min run just now. The temp steadily rising upto just below the hot mark, electric fan clicked on ok, and stayed on.

Had the heater on, which was blowing air out of the windsceeen vents, but not blowing hot air, just ambient air.

 

So, pretty well back to square one. Everything seems to be working but with no heater. Maybe the heater is blocked/ or the water is not circulating. I've had the pump out before and it looked new. I'll be getting it out again and putting a new one in, as a last resort.

 

With the rad cap off, after the thermostat had opened I couldn't really discern a great flow from the top rad pipe into the rad. Should this be really noticeable?

 

Cheers

Dave.

[MRG1965]

Hi Dave your garden hose(assuming you have one) can be used flush the heater matrix backwards and forwards from the two pipes to the heater, one off the tap and the one that goes around the back of the head to the bypass off the pump housing. Could also be used to see if the heater valve is opening correctly by trying to push water in the tap. Mine sticks some times as I found even though the pin in the middle lifts. But if the gasket is gone you could have air in the heater pipes which will cause air locks stopping it from working too.

 

Mark

[dpb]

Hi Mark

 

Thanks for that. i'll give the heater a flush. Done it before, but a while ago.

 

Did you mean the headgasket, or something else?

 

Cheers

Dave

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[stuart]

You will quite often find the heater valve is solid with crud as well and nothing will circulate then no matter what you do.

Stuart.

Edited August 24, 2014 by stuart

[MRG1965]

Hi Mark

 

Thanks for that. i'll give the heater a flush. Done it before, but a while ago.

 

Did you mean the headgasket, or something else?

 

Cheers

Dave

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Hi Dave, yes headgasket, and Stuart is right you may have to replace the control valve, but they are available from the usual suspects for around £15 I recall.

 

Mark

[peejay4A]

Take the opportunity to replace it with one that works. Such as this one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Taxi-LTI-TX1-Kit-Car-Classic-Car-Heater-Control-Valve-OE-Quality-2Years-Warranty-/321495849583?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4adaa55a6f

A bit of plumbing and an adaptor to go in the head but you'll get a heater that you can actually moderate. Also available as a kit from some suppliers but DIY is cheaper.

Edited August 25, 2014 by peejay4A

[dpb]

Well, I'll be replacing it now. Took the old one off to check and clean and the outlet spout broke off. The old one looked rusty, and a bit gunky. Couldn't tell if it had been working or jammed or what. Flushed the heater through both ways and the heating return pipe at the side of the engine. All looked not bad.

 

Does anyone have an answer to my earlier question:-

 

After the thermostat opens, and with the rad cap off, should I be able to see water rushing into the top of the rad to prove its circulating?

 

Dave

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[Lebro]

Yes, I would have thought so.

 

Bob.

[RogerH]

I think rushing would be beyond ones expectation but flowing/movement would be a more likely event.

 

Roger

[dpb]

hi,

 

its been ages but finally got round to testing the water for exhaust gases. I bought a kit after having been let down by a garage a few times.

Anyway,,,,,you are supposed to pump the rubber bulb thing for a minute and the liquid in the tester is supposed to turn yellow (from blue) if gases are present. Well mine pretty well blew itself up without me pumping and turned yellow in about 3 seconds flat. Pretty conclusive I would say.

 

So now need to strip it down and either new head gasket, or new engine I guess. In process of getting a larger garage built, but not likely to be ready for months with winter coming on, so it will be next spring before much happens. Probably should replace the clutch while I am at it.

 

Any handy tips on stripping the engine, or just RTFM?

 

Dave

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[billg]

Hi Dave

 

Do not despair! A head gasket changeover is a one day job if all the studs are clean and you have a pal to hand to help you lift it off. This assumes no other problems like f of 8 gaskets gone or blocked waterways in the block or radiator.

 

However if the head has not been off for thousands of miles you really should perhaps check every aspect of the valves and valve gear, plus decoke the head / piston crowns and grind in the valves again if they are serviceable.

 

Plus perhaps contemplate getting unleaded exhaust valve seats fitted, sadly a £200 to £300 specialist job. Some would say not always necessary though.

 

I've just had new valve seats done on a spare TR4 A head , plus bought new valves, guides, springs, collets and caps, plus had it lightly skimmed. Along with new housing for the thermostat so far about £500+ invested not to mention buying the spare head for £150 (a bargain)

 

Still to fully check the rocker bushes etc.

 

Best of luck

 

bill G@ NB

[Motorsport Mickey]

I think you now need to take positive action to establish what's needed, and this will likely require a degree of stripping the engine down.

 

Open the engine block drain tap (rear of the engine drivers side) and see if any water comes out, if blocked (almost certain) use a small screwdriver or piece of wire to wiggle about and see if you can dislodge the obstruction, if not don't despair. From what you relate and the test it appears the head gasket has gone, as specified in Bills post remove head, 1 1/2 - 2 hours (assuming all nuts remove ok) ask a mate for a lift, if it's difficult to wiggle it up the studs see if you can remove some short studs (ends and the middle) using the double nut method that should get it up the studs left in the block. If the studs are seized in the cylinder head make a little dam of plasticine around the stud and drop diesel onto the stud and flood it, you may have to wait a day or two for it to penetrate down the stud and the block, keep topping up, be patient. The longer studs towards the middle are the ones most likely to sieze if they've been in a long time.

 

When the heads off take photos of head and block as good quality as you can to aid you memory, then examine the head and the top of the block looking for obvious signs of water breaking the seal, normally it will remove the carbon, also check the spark plugs, where the gasket leak is the spark plug is likely to be cleaner than the others.

Then it's down to measuring, measure the cylinder liners protrusion up from the block, you're looking for them to be between 3 and 5 thou proud of the block top surface, but more importantly for them all to be about the same whatever the dimension. Use a depth micrometer (can be had cheaply on e bay) rather than a straight edge and feeler gauges and measure the liners at 4 points around it's circumference.

 

For example overall readings of 5 5 5 4 or even 3 will probably be ok, but readings of 5 5 3 5 would not, ...why ? if the liner with lesser protrusion is on the end the head will bend under torqueing and still establish a seal. If the liner with a smaller reading is in between two other higher liners it will leak, the head cannot be persuaded to bend over the shorter distance in between two higher liners and so the seal will have less clamping force and the gasket will likely blow. Whilst the head is off see if you can get into the area around number 4 liner and dislodge any rust or **** near the tap. If it's particularly badly corroded and the liner is sealed it could be one of the reasons why the engine is overheating and the gasket has blown.

 

The engines sit in the car tilted backwards and the silt and dead mice etc in the waterways travel to the rear and settle there. The engines cylinders heat up in the order of No4 (because it's furthest away it has slower flow, and has the silt and **** build up around it), Then No1, because it's too close to the water pump and the water flow is at it's fiercest and speeds past the liner without removing sufficient heat, then No2 and No3 achieve about the correct temp not suffering from any of these afflictions.

See what comes out of the block and what the liners protrusions are before making any decisions regarding what to do, you can also check the cylinder head for cracks (between the valves is obviously favourite) but to be honest many engines will perform happily with cracks in these positions. Also look at the top of the engine block and check for cracks from the studs and the web across the block in the centre of the engine. All these items will affect how you will approach the rebuild, whether to settle for a repair or fully recondition, advise us how you get on.

 

Mick Richards

Edited October 29, 2014 by Motorsport Mickey

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

PS To Mick's notes above.

 

Do NOT turn the crank once the head nuts are removed - This trick is often used to 'crack' the head gasket seal - problem is it may well cause the liners to lift off their seats, so DO NOT TURN THE CRANK unless the liners are retained in the block. - or of course you intended to remove the liners at this stage.

Cheers

Peter W

[dpb]

well, that's a lot of good advice. Thanks for that, I'll use it when the time arrives (needs to stop raining before much else happens).

 

I'll keep a log of what happens and what I find. Doubtless I'll be back for more help

 

Cheers

Dave

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