nickw71 Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 Morning folks, My front suspension build has been going VERY slowly as "life" and other project got in the way. I overcame a little issue with the Superflex trunnions bushes (separate thread), got the offside back together and I'm very happy with the job. Onto the nearside and I have a question about the trunnions. With the trunnion held in the vice and the vertical link screwed and back off the half turn or so for the correct orientation there seems to be a lot of play if I hold the top ball joint and waggle it. Waggling the trunnion out of the vice the play is obviously not as discernible as it's not amplified by the length of the vertical link. The acme style thread on the end of the trunnion looks ok as does the trunnion thread it's well-oiled with gearbox oil as per Brown Book. If I have to be honest the nearside felt much the same, perhaps a little less play. See attached video and images. How should they feel? Are they worn out or is this normal and acceptable? Nick trunnion play.MOV Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Charlie D Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 Nick, First, I am not an expert, but I have rebuilt half a dozen or so TR / Herald front suspensions over the years and to me that seems excess play. I’m slightly biased because I once had an upright snap while going down the road at 30 MPH and have always been worried that it might happen again. When I rebuilt my 3A a few years ago I bought a brand new pair of uprights and trunnions just to be on the safe side. Not cheap, in fact one of the most expensive new items that I did buy for the rebuild, but they are quite important safety items. You can still drive a car (to a certain extent) with no brakes, but when a steering/suspension item snaps you are in the lap of the gods. Just another point. There is always a lot of disagreement on what to pump into the trunnion for lubrication. You mention gearbox oil. Personally I use Penrite steering box lube. (as do some other people. ) I feel that the slightly thicker Penrite oil helps take up any wear there might be plus less chance for it to leak out. Charlie. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 Hi Nick, I can't open your video clip. There must always be some wear - how much is too much?? From the photo of the VL thread - it looks pretty clean and unworn. They wear asymmetrically, with the lower slope of the thread taking all the force/waer. Can you get a boroscope/endoscope into the TRunnion to look at the tread. As for Lube. I use LM grease. But if I was using oil I would use a heavy weight oil come liquid grease. < 90+ Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nickw71 Posted December 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 Thanks Charlie. Having a vertical link snap doesn't sound fun. The Penrite oil is a good shout and I think I have seen it mentioned on another thread having trawled all of them looking for guidance on the wear. I've an oil gun for my lathe so I'm able to inject oil. Nick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nickw71 Posted December 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 7 minutes ago, RogerH said: Hi Nick, I can't open your video clip. There must always be some wear - how much is too much?? From the photo of the VL thread - it looks pretty clean and unworn. They wear asymmetrically, with the lower slope of the thread taking all the force/waer. Can you get a boroscope/endoscope into the TRunnion to look at the tread. As for Lube. I use LM grease. But if I was using oil I would use a heavy weight oil come liquid grease. < 90+ Roger That's a pain Roger. Try this link. https://1drv.ms/v/s!AisOgklfMMQkgpl3GK1YK8cHnllTIA?e=XFHSwR I haven't got a boroscope for the internal threads but I can see that they are clean and shiny with no pick-up. The VL threads also look very clean and unworn. I've seen pictures of them in a terrible state due to neglect but these have always been well greased in my time. BTW a heavier oil is the answer as the thin gearbox oil as recommended by the manual does tend to slowly leak from the trunnion end caps. What do you think? Nick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Charlie D Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 11 minutes ago, nickw71 said: ...tend to slowly leak from the trunnion end caps... The usual cure for that is to run a bead of solder around where the steel baseplate meets the brass trunnion. Problem is that once the trunnion has been used and leaked, you will never really get rid of all the oil in the joint so getting the solder to “Stick” is a problem. As you heat the trunnion up it causes the oils to seep more, so not ideal for the solder flow. The thicker Penrite oil does help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 (edited) Thats definitely too much play, the VL thread looks fine, its the trunnion thread that is sacrificial. I would replace them with new Moss ones. Sadly on back order at Moss at the moment but you could try TR Shop and see if they have stock, be very wary of other replacements as there are some poor ones around that dont last very long. I grease mine just make sure you keep pumping till you see clean coming out round the seal.I always solder the bottom seal in before using new ones. Stuart. Edited December 13, 2023 by stuart Quote Link to post Share on other sites
keith1948 Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 Hi Nick I agree with Stuart that is too much play The other issue I have experienced is the shackle bolt that goes through the trunnion being a loose fit. As Stuart says there are some poor repro trunnions around. For lubrication I have used LM grease with some oil added. Maybe wait and go to the Triumph/MG spares day at Stoneleigh in the new year (11th February) and take your vertical link and try some trunnions for fit and get a good fit shackle bolt at the same time as well? Keith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nickw71 Posted December 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 Thanks Stuart and Keith for confirming Charlie's thoughts ... and my own really. I can see that the softer bronze trunnion thread is going to be the sacrificial part of the assembly and hence no visible where on the VT thread. Stoneleigh is an idea and I'm not that far away. I might wait until then although I could really do with getting the car off the ramp and back on all 4 wheels. Rimmers sell trunnions marked Stanpart (I'm assuming repro not some magic stash of NOS) as do James Paddock. Any thoughts on those two Stuart? I'll try TR Shop as well. Nick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted December 13, 2023 Report Share Posted December 13, 2023 2 hours ago, nickw71 said: Thanks Stuart and Keith for confirming Charlie's thoughts ... and my own really. I can see that the softer bronze trunnion thread is going to be the sacrificial part of the assembly and hence no visible where on the VT thread. Stoneleigh is an idea and I'm not that far away. I might wait until then although I could really do with getting the car off the ramp and back on all 4 wheels. Rimmers sell trunnions marked Stanpart (I'm assuming repro not some magic stash of NOS) as do James Paddock. Any thoughts on those two Stuart? I'll try TR Shop as well. Nick In order of preference TR Shop, TR Bitz TR Trader James Paddock......Rimmers. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nickw71 Posted December 14, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2023 Cheers Stuart. A pair of trunnions are on their way from the TRShop for me. Interesting to see how they compare to the old units. I'll post for interest and the forum record. Nick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted December 14, 2023 Report Share Posted December 14, 2023 Hi Nick, occasionally new trunnions can be quite stiff on the thread Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted December 14, 2023 Report Share Posted December 14, 2023 4 minutes ago, RogerH said: Hi Nick, occasionally new trunnions can be quite stiff on the thread Roger Yes the Moss ones are designed to be like that to allow for slight wear in the VL thread. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dingle Posted December 14, 2023 Report Share Posted December 14, 2023 I have noticed in my red TR2-3 service manual that the clearance for the trunnion is .002" to .008". I am not sure how much that would be at the wheel. Berry Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nickw71 Posted December 16, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2023 Morning Roger, Stuart et al, New trunnions arrived from the TRShop yesterday. They are marked SCP and look outwardly similar to my old ones - but I can't screw it all the way as they're threaded slightly deeper and foul the calliper mounting plate. Grrrrr. I'm probably missing just half a turn. Tried to remove the plate but it's stuck. Should it come off it I persuade it with a hide mallet? Anyway, no discernible difference in the amount of play between old and new. See link to the clips below. https://1drv.ms/v/s!AisOgklfMMQkgpoJ7Vij6WKPBWhAJQ?e=UOVQcp https://1drv.ms/v/s!AisOgklfMMQkgpoIwAk7dBNnBpcYmQ?e=eK13YM My old trunnions actually look very clean indeed inside. They look patten, not Stanpart. Perhaps it's the VL thread that was worn and not the trunnions? My vertical link is marked Britpart 645627 (which is the same as the patten one Moss, Racestorations, Paddocks) but I have no idea if it's a replacement or it's factory and done all of the car's 160,000 miles. I guess my next move will be to order a VL from say Moss (they all seem to be selling the same patten VL) to see how that feels with both trunnions. Old cars, what a joy... Any thoughts gentlemen? Nick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted December 16, 2023 Report Share Posted December 16, 2023 Hi Nick, do you live near any of the suppliers? It may be worth popping in and trying old and new trunnions on a VL BEFORE you buy. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nickw71 Posted December 16, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2023 Roger, I'm in Thame, Oxon so I don't think there is anyone close by. Nearest might be Moss's London store? I suppose I could order online and then simply return by post it if there is no difference. If we're all certain that there is too much play then I can't bolt it all back together "as-is" having ploybushed and cleaned the whole lot. Just hadn't counted on the trunnions/VLs being worn... I'll have to buy new stub axles as well :-( Nick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytr5 Posted December 16, 2023 Report Share Posted December 16, 2023 Just a foot note Nic, Make sure the mating surfaces are metal to metal contact. I had my suspension powder coated and assembled it with out thinking of the powder coat deteriorating between the joining surfaces. This was picked up on a MOT and loose steering arm joints. Lesson learnt.So I thought I would pass it on I do like the trunnions Moss sell Regards Harry Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nickw71 Posted December 16, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2023 Thanks for that Harry. If I end up with new VLs I'll probably get them powder coated and be sure to mask up any mating surfaces. On the subject of the caliper mounting plate, should it just knock off the VL? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
michaelfinnis Posted December 16, 2023 Report Share Posted December 16, 2023 Ref play or wear, I found this on Racetorations web site; LH trunnion assembly suitable for TR4A - 6. This is a common wear point on the front suspension throughout the TR range and is critical to the characteristics of the driving experience. Always check both sides for wear ensuring no forwards & back movements can be made to the vertical link when installed in the trunnion. They are talking about forwards and back movement rather than side to side, maybe give them a call and ask their advice? Mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted December 16, 2023 Report Share Posted December 16, 2023 1 hour ago, nickw71 said: Thanks for that Harry. If I end up with new VLs I'll probably get them powder coated and be sure to mask up any mating surfaces. On the subject of the caliper mounting plate, should it just knock off the VL? Caliper mounting should be removable as its a separate part. Item 25 here https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr5-6/steering-suspension/front-suspension/front-suspension-tr5-6-1967-76.html Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted December 16, 2023 Report Share Posted December 16, 2023 Remove the caliper mounting, this should allow you one more turn of the trunnion on the vertical link. I‘ve been told this is the correct installation. According to this is true, and you can remove the trunnion from the vertical link with the caliper mounting still installed, it has been installed wrong. Ciao, Marco Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted December 16, 2023 Report Share Posted December 16, 2023 (edited) Is Kettering near you? I think The Scimitar SE5 front suspension is the same https://www.scimitarparts.com/ cheaper than Moss too If they are correct. https://www.scimitarparts.com/product/206011-vertical-link-lh/ Edited December 16, 2023 by BlueTR3A-5EKT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nickw71 Posted December 17, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2023 On 12/16/2023 at 12:07 PM, michaelfinnis said: Ref play or wear, I found this on Racetorations web site; LH trunnion assembly suitable for TR4A - 6. This is a common wear point on the front suspension throughout the TR range and is critical to the characteristics of the driving experience. Always check both sides for wear ensuring no forwards & back movements can be made to the vertical link when installed in the trunnion. They are talking about forwards and back movement rather than side to side, maybe give them a call and ask their advice? Mike. Thanks Mike, I saw this as well as I was searching through my favourite suppliers. I'm going to give them a call in the morning. I'm actually not convinced the trunnion/VL is worn (because the geometry of an ACME thread will allow twisting play) but I will find out tomorrow and will definitely feedback to everyone. Nick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nickw71 Posted December 17, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2023 On 12/16/2023 at 1:50 PM, BlueTR3A-5EKT said: Is Kettering near you? I think The Scimitar SE5 front suspension is the same https://www.scimitarparts.com/ cheaper than Moss too If they are correct. https://www.scimitarparts.com/product/206011-vertical-link-lh/ A bit far from me but thanks for the suggestion. Good to know you can get the same part for less just because it's destined for a Reliant! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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