4a. Won’t start after full rebuild. Any ideas what to check next pse?

[Steven Whitaker]

11 hours ago, John L said:

Steven.

When you set the tappet settings as per your manual, on valves 7 and 8, and turned the crank with the chain still attached, to give both rear valves, one closing and one just about to open, where was the #1 piston?  was it at TDC or not, that's all you needed to tell us.

We are trying very hard for you to follow exact instructions and give us answers, one by one, then we can help.

Where was the # one piston? if it wasn't at TDC, was it before TDC or after TDC? either you got the cam timing wrong, or its not a standard cam. 

John

Hi John,

I appreciate your patience.  As per the manual I followed this process to the letter.  Your instructions above suggest turning the crank with the chain attached.  The manual doesn’t say this!  I set 7 & 8 to the balance point, then moved the cam so that the clearances on 7 & 8 were the same, as per the manual. 
 

All the while, the crank is sat at tdc with no chain attached.  Then, all I did was offer the  old cam chain ring with the alignment mark on it, but the line didn’t point to the centre of the crank.  That’s when I stopped as I expected the line on the cam wheel to line up with the line on crank sprocket when at tdc.

i find it odd from the manual, that it tells you to find the balance point of 7&8 then move the cam again to get equal gaps on 7&8.  Please see the photos of the manual which I used and followed to the letter.  It should be right, but the cam sprocket doesn’t line up.

Thanks.  I really want to sort this myself so thanks for not giving up on me!

Steven.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Steven Whitaker

[Steven Whitaker]

On 11/27/2023 at 5:19 PM, John L said:

Doesn't anybody live near Hebden Bridge to help??  We could fill pages and pages.....

John

That would be wonderful.

[Steven Whitaker]

1 hour ago, Michel Higuet said:

Ok I stop here because it becomes a duck soup...

Steven has already difficulty with one method to degree the camshaft and here we give him 3 different method with mixing the advises.

He found the true TDC ok but then a real mechanic would have to know the actual degree of the camshaft just to know how much dephasing it was and a very good indication the cause for the 50psi. It was not done! It was still easy, only to position the degree wheel, position the at TDC Cyl 1 firing and READ the wheel...

I thing Steven is not up to make a job like this one and the avalanche of different advices here only makes it more confusing for him. Better for him to ask somebody to do the job.

I stop... 

Thanks for you help Michael.  There seems to be so many different ways to set the valve timing, to get to the same point.  I think I’m a bit overwhelmed to be honest.  I’m capable of following instructions but there are so many different instructions and videos etc.  Anyway, thanks for your advice and I wish you well.  Meanwhile I keep trying..  Steven

Edited December 3, 2023 by Steven Whitaker

[Steven Whitaker]

On 11/25/2023 at 3:24 PM, Michel Higuet said:

First step you need to find the true TDC, with the head off you need a micrometre but because your head is on you need the following tool ( and of course a degree wheel ).

When you have found the true TDC you mark it ( or checked ) on the crankshaft pulley. 

 

You will see with the tool in the sparkplug, turning the crankshaft clockwise and counter clockwise the degree wheel will stop at 2 different place, eg -10 and +20 so TDC is just at the middle +15, you remove the tool, set your degree at +15 and mark the pulley. 

 

The rotor need in the direction of cyl 1  it need to be the compression stroke  ( cyl 4 at this time is also at TDC but it's the exhaust stroke )

 

Start already with that.

 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Center-Locater-Screws-Bolt-Style-Spark/dp/B09NBL5TFV/ref=sr_1_21_sspa?keywords=TDC+tool&sr=8-21-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9idGY&psc=1

 

https://www.amazon.com/Motion-Pro-08-0092-Anodized-Degree/dp/B009D38L88/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=camshaft+degree+wheel&sr=8-5

I’m re-reading everything before I start again today.  Is the above correct?  Shouldn’t it be set at +5 in your example, to find tdc?

Anyway, I have tdc.  That was simple.  Thanks.

[ianc]

Steven,

Don't worry about the fact that you are now on page 9 - I am sure that there are many like me who are silent, but admiring your doggedness and keeping fingers crossed that sometime soon, your motor will burst into life.

Keep warm as I find it's easy to make mistakes when not just hands but also brain gets too cold.

Best wishes, Ian Cornish

[roy53]

5 minutes ago, ianc said:

Steven,

Don't worry about the fact that you are now on page 9 - I am sure that there are many like me who are silent, but admiring your doggedness and keeping fingers crossed that sometime soon, your motor will burst into life.

Keep warm as I find it's easy to make mistakes when not just hands but also brain gets too cold.

Best wishes, Ian Cornish

Totally agree

Roy

[trchris]

Hi Steven  l also agree don’t worry about how long the post is or the amount of questions you may ask we all want to try and answer as best as you can understand go at your own pace and eventually you’ll see the wood from the trees and it’ll all slip into place 

Chris 

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

I am about to do this job but backwards.   The engine must come to bits as the sump is filling with cooling water.  It was built some 30 years ago and has done probably 30 k miles  It is in fact one of the test engines for the Moss remade cranks, pistons and liners from the late 1980’s.

The engine has a special cam in it which is allegedly a 2R profile from Tony Dean .   The engine goes like a dream, ticks over smoothly and pulls consistently through the rev range, so I want to get the cam timed back as it is now; or the owner will grumble.   I will do all the obvious tests and checks before I strip any parts from the assembly.  I do not know if the cam and crank sprockets are marked, ( I did not build the engine originally) but I will mark them after I have confirmed the cam timing in relation to the crank.  
 

Do you want photos of the checks and methods I use?  I can post them in a different thread rather than cluttering this one?

Edited December 3, 2023 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[keith1948]

2 hours ago, Steven Whitaker said:

You will see with the tool in the sparkplug, turning the crankshaft clockwise and counter clockwise the degree wheel will stop at 2 different place, eg -10 and +20 so TDC is just at the middle +15,

Quoted from Michel earlier. Is my maths wrong if I say there are 30 deg between -10 and +20. Half is 15 deg. So -10 plus 15 is plus 5. Equally plus 20 minus 15 is also plus 5. So by my reckoning halfway between -10 and +20 is +5.

Keith

[Steven Whitaker]

2 minutes ago, keith1948 said:

Quoted from Michel earlier. Is my maths wrong if I say there are 30 deg between -10 and +20. Half is 15 deg. So -10 plus 15 is plus 5. Equally plus 20 minus 15 is also plus 5. So by my reckoning halfway between -10 and +20 is +5.

Keith

Thanks for confirming my maths is correct. I will rejoice that I’m not going insane, yet!  Ha Ha.  Steven.

[Steven Whitaker]

Thanks for all your kind words chaps.  I keep going.  
 

Have just set cyl 1 & 4 to TDc and fitted the original marked up chain wheels and chain as per the manual.  I’m going to set the tappet clearances next, then turn it over and check compression.

When I got the car it came with a ‘spare’ engine.  That engine turned out to be the original engine for the car. When I stripped it I found a cracked liner, suggesting this was the reason for the engine swap.  

I rebuilt the original engine with new pistons and liners etc. but I used the cam out of the engine which came in the car because it looked like new, and better than the one fitted.  It looked the same, but I didn’t check the part number!  So the cam in the engine in the car now, is now mated with its original chain wheels.  So, all should be well, unless the this cam out of the engine in the car when I got it is non standard?  I should have mentioned this earlier, but I only just thought of this as a possible unknown.

The cam out of the spare engine is a 307036.  MC24174.  Not sure if that helps though.

Part numbers of the 2 heads is 302137.  One says B216 and other says N115.

Is it possible to swap the cam without removing the engine from the car?  Perhaps I should buy a new cam if the above fails…

Will see if I have compression and go from there.

Wish it was a bit warmer in the garage.  It’s cold in Yorkshire!

Thanks,  Steven

Edited December 3, 2023 by Steven Whitaker

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

30 minutes ago, keith1948 said:

Quoted from Michel earlier. Is my maths wrong if I say there are 30 deg between -10 and +20. Half is 15 deg. So -10 plus 15 is plus 5. Equally plus 20 minus 15 is also plus 5. So by my reckoning halfway between -10 and +20 is +5.

Keith

You are going in the right direction.  
You have removed the chain that connects crank and cam so only one thing at a time can be rotated.

The sums are correct.  

Move the crank and it’s timing wheel to +5 degrees indicated with the fixed pointer you have attached to the engine block.

Without moving the crank.    Move the timing wheel protractor to indicate 0 or top dead centre to your fixed pointer.

Now retest the piston rise to the stop in both clockwise and anti clockwise directions and note the degree reading in both instances.   Just the same as you have done before.    These new numbers should be equal confirming they are an equal distance from top dead centre.  If not do the sum again and reset the crank to the number required, reset the timing disc to zero and repeat the rotation to the piston stop.   If now equal numbers you have found TDC   Do not move or rotate the protractor timing disc on the crank.   They must remain locked together   

 

With this done move on to the cam position   Reference the equal rocking of 7/8 as described earlier.    With the cam in the correct place and the crank set to TDC offer up the chain and its cam sprocket to allow the bolts to go in without turning crank or cam.    NOTE.  There is a tensioner that pushes against the chain on the inlet/exhaust manifold side of the engine.  This means the chain run on the other side, opposite the tensioner must not be sloppy.

[keith1948]

 

Hello Steven

I have 3 workshop manuals in front of me. The one you have quoted is the 'proper' workshop manual for the TR4 with extra bits in for the 4A. Now the 2 others I have are the Haynes manual and the Autobook 778 for the 4 and 4A. These two both differ slightly from the workshop manual. These both say that after setting the rocker clearances on numbers 7 and 8 to .040 inch then rotate the camshaft so both 7 and 8 are closed and slight rotation either way will start to open one or other valve. The figure 64 referred to shows this. This makes more sense than the workshop manual where it says one valve is about to close and the other about to open.

When you reach the step of turning the crankshaft, both Haynes and Autbook say the woodruff key should point down when numbers 1 and 4 are both at TDC. The workshop manual doesn't say this so I guess you could be 180 degrees out if you have the woodruff key pointing upwards.

Having different manuals with slightly different instructions doesn't help.

Keith

[Rob Salisbury]

Oh Dear!!,                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Not just Duck Soup, I think you've got a Dog's Dinner to go with the soup!!, not to worry all will come right in the end, the cam from the spare engine is a standard one unless it's been reprofiled (something rarely done these days), yes you can swap the cam with the engine in place, you need to have the head off to replace the cam followers, and if you go for a new cam you must use the followers recommended for that cam (or Newmans indestructible ones), the radiator has to come out and things are a lot easier if you remove the turret cross beam.                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Cheers Rob 

[Motorsport Mickey]

Hi Steven, just to clarify this is your first 4 cylinder TR build ? 

Can I just confirm that you found the information in the books that told you to make sure the liners are fitted on top of the Figure of 8 gaskets (on the liner shoulders in the block), and the liners being pushed down by the cylinder head being torqued up which is then removed for measuring, this then allows the liners to protrude between 3 and 5 thou above the top block surface with the head gasket on top of them ? 

This is important to ensure a compression seal around the top of each liner, it has been known for rebuilders to skim the liners flat with the block surface which then is likely it doesn't give the compression necessary for the engine, and then leaks.

Mick Richards

[Steven Whitaker]

Thanks for your messages above since my last post, when I was out in the cold garage without WiFi.  I’ve set the tappets and now have approx 150psi on all 4 cylinders.  I’m pleased about that!

The pics are all with my new comp tester, which aligns with the one I borrowed as I doubled checked with that tester too.  So that seems conclusive that I messed up the valve timing with the new unmarked chain wheels!

 

 

[Steven Whitaker]

40 minutes ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

You are going in the right direction.  
You have removed the chain that connects crank and cam so only one thing at a time can be rotated.

The sums are correct.  

Move the crank and it’s timing wheel to +5 degrees indicated with the fixed pointer you have attached to the engine block.

Without moving the crank.    Move the timing wheel protractor to indicate 0 or top dead centre to your fixed pointer.

Now retest the piston rise to the stop in both clockwise and anti clockwise directions and note the degree reading in both instances.   Just the same as you have done before.    These new numbers should be equal confirming they are an equal distance from top dead centre.  If not do the sum again and reset the crank to the number required, reset the timing disc to zero and repeat the rotation to the piston stop.   If now equal numbers you have found TDC   Do not move or rotate the protractor timing disc on the crank.   They must remain locked together   

 

With this done move on to the cam position   Reference the equal rocking of 7/8 as described earlier.    With the cam in the correct place and the crank set to TDC offer up the chain and its cam sprocket to allow the bolts to go in without turning crank or cam.    NOTE.  There is a tensioner that pushes against the chain on the inlet/exhaust manifold side of the engine.  This means the chain run on the other side, opposite the tensioner must not be sloppy.

Hi Peter.  I’m not ignoring you.  Thanks for your info.  I was already into fitting the old chain wheels and now have compression of circa 150 psi on all 4.  Cheers.

[Steven Whitaker]

34 minutes ago, Rob Salisbury said:

Oh Dear!!,                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Not just Duck Soup, I think you've got a Dog's Dinner to go with the soup!!, not to worry all will come right in the end, the cam from the spare engine is a standard one unless it's been reprofiled (something rarely done these days), yes you can swap the cam with the engine in place, you need to have the head off to replace the cam followers, and if you go for a new cam you must use the followers recommended for that cam (or Newmans indestructible ones), the radiator has to come out and things are a lot easier if you remove the turret cross beam.                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Cheers Rob 

Ok, thanks Rob.  Ha ha.  I have compression so I think I’m winning again.  Good to know about cam replacement.  Understood.

[Steven Whitaker]

17 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Hi Steven, just to clarify this is your first 4 cylinder TR build ? 

Can I just confirm that you found the information in the books that told you to make sure the liners are fitted on top of the Figure of 8 gaskets (on the liner shoulders in the block), and the liners being pushed down by the cylinder head being torqued up which is then removed for measuring, this then allows the liners to protrude between 3 and 5 thou above the top block surface with the head gasket on top of them ? 

This is important to ensure a compression seal around the top of each liner, it has been known for rebuilders to skim the liners flat with the block surface which then is likely it doesn't give the compression necessary for the engine, and then leaks.

Mick Richards

Hi Mike, yes it’s my first 4a rebuild.  Whilst the block was at the machine shop, I got them to fit the liners and supplied the. With the figure of 8 and the manual, and drew their attention to the procedure.  They said they followed it re the liners protruding.  The machine shop is old school so I trust them, but maybe I should have checked.  I did the rest of the engine rebuild.  Thanks.

[Steven Whitaker]

46 minutes ago, keith1948 said:

 

Hello Steven

I have 3 workshop manuals in front of me. The one you have quoted is the 'proper' workshop manual for the TR4 with extra bits in for the 4A. Now the 2 others I have are the Haynes manual and the Autobook 778 for the 4 and 4A. These two both differ slightly from the workshop manual. These both say that after setting the rocker clearances on numbers 7 and 8 to .040 inch then rotate the camshaft so both 7 and 8 are closed and slight rotation either way will start to open one or other valve. The figure 64 referred to shows this. This makes more sense than the workshop manual where it says one valve is about to close and the other about to open.

When you reach the step of turning the crankshaft, both Haynes and Autbook say the woodruff key should point down when numbers 1 and 4 are both at TDC. The workshop manual doesn't say this so I guess you could be 180 degrees out if you have the woodruff key pointing upwards.

Having different manuals with slightly different instructions doesn't help.

Keith

Hi Keith.  That all makes sense yes.  At tdc the woodruff key in the crank is down at 6 o’clock.  Cheers.

[keith1948]

Hi Steve

So far so good. Don't forget the final rocker clearances is 0.010 not 0.040 used in the setting process.

Keith

[Steven Whitaker]

Yes Keith, all reset to 10 thou.  Cheers.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Steven Whitaker

[Michel Higuet]

18 minutes ago, Steven Whitaker said:

Thanks for your messages above since my last post, when I was out in the cold garage without WiFi.  I’ve set the tappets and now have approx 150psi on all 4 cylinders.  I’m please about that!

So you corrected the mis-adjustment of the camshaft, Bravo your problem is out. From the first measurement with the compression gauge the problem was evident, other possibilities where immediately out, leak manifold, carbs, ignition, valves problems.

 

 

[Steven Whitaker]

38 minutes ago, Michel Higuet said:

So you corrected the mis-adjustment of the camshaft, Bravo your problem is out. From the first measurement with the compression gauge the problem was evident, other possibilities where immediately out, leak manifold, carbs, ignition, valves problems.

 

 

Easy in hindsight!  I learned a lot.  Thanks.

[Steven Whitaker]

Well, she is running!!!

After putting the old marked up sprockets back on and lining them up at tdc cylinder 1, then resetting the tappets I noticed the rotor arm wasn’t pointing to push rod 1, which makes sense..  Took the dizzy drive gear out and moved it clockwise a tooth and refitted it to mesh into the oil pump and put everything back together and it started!  Only ran for few seconds but I’m happy.

Thanks everyone for your help and patience.  I’ll now remove the old sprockets and replace with the new, then start setting it up to get it running properly.  Hopefully that won’t be another 9 pages.

So, it looks like I messed up the valve timing.  Lesson learned.  Thanks again.

And relax, a bit!