Ian Vincent Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 Nigel, You could do worse than try the rock ape fix of a 15 thou soft copper wire (or even 2) around the top of the solid copper gasket on each bore. Rgds Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel C Posted January 23, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 Hi Ian, Its not the top of the bore as I see it, that is touching all-round ....its just not touching anywhere else! I could do the wire trick around everything else as has been mentioned before...but part of my says why should I? surely there's enough good TR people out there that can supply something that will fix this equally I have thought about getting someone to mill 2-3 tho? off the gasket where the liner line is; tall order and I would have to anneal it again and is that one annealing to far??? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) Surely the problem is not sealing to the liners (with the solid gasket), but sealing to everywhere else. copper wire on top of the liners will just make things worse. Bob Ah, just beat me to it. ! you can anneal as many times as you like. My guess is that it has not been properly annealed, or the material is not normal copper ? Edited January 23, 2023 by Lebro Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 7 minutes ago, Lebro said: Surely the problem is not sealing to the liners (with the solid gasket), but sealing to everywhere else. copper wire on top of the liners will just make things worse. Bob Ah, just beat me to it. ! you can anneal as many times as you like. My guess is that it has not been properly annealed, or the material is not normal copper ? I think you are right Bob, annealing is as I said above difficult, once you have done it correctly you will know…… If you stand the gasket vertical on the bench holding the top and start to let it support itself it will start to collapse under its own weight. Then if the head, liner heights and block are all good it will seal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel C Posted January 23, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 Mick, Mine does look to have more "meat" in the Siamese area Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel C Posted January 23, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 1 minute ago, iain said: I think you are right Bob, annealing is as I said above difficult, once you have done it correctly you will know…… If you stand the gasket vertical on the bench holding the top and start to let it support itself it will start to collapse under its own weight. Then if the head, liner heights and block are all good it will seal. wow, I think I could stand on the top edge of the gasket and it would still support itself. OK, need a second opinion on this gasket me thinks...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Lebro said: Surely the problem is not sealing to the liners (with the solid gasket), but sealing to everywhere else. copper wire on top of the liners will just make things worse. Bob Ah, just beat me to it. ! you can anneal as many times as you like. My guess is that it has not been properly annealed, or the material is not normal copper ? "Surely the problem is not sealing to the liners (with the solid gasket), but sealing to everywhere else." Bingo - Bob, I thought that's what I said in a previous post... “ The solid copper does have a problem stretching down to the lower pressure areas around the water jacket top of the block to head, annealing will hopefully make it easier to stretch.” My posting of the homemade "Wills ring" fitted onto a copper gasket around the liner wasn't to suggest it be added there, but around the other waterjacket areas and the pushrod voids into the head and block where there wasn’t a beneficial 4 thou upstanding edge to compress the solid gasket against. Mick Richards Edited January 23, 2023 by Motorsport Mickey Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Nigel C said: Mick, Mine does look to have more "meat" in the Siamese area Yeah, a race head above( photo of an interim Mk) reduces the inlet "bridge" between the siamesed valves down to about 5mm when we are trying, so there is plenty of room there on your head for a gasket compression ring to seal. This is a photo of a new Moss head, doesn't even have the valve seats cut yet. I guess yours haven't had too much removed there yet. That's why I asked you what the composite gasket measurements were for that area about 20 posts ago, just juggling thoughts and possibilities. Mick Richards Edited January 23, 2023 by Motorsport Mickey Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Nigel C said: wow, I think I could stand on the top edge of the gasket and it would still support itself. OK, need a second opinion on this gasket me thinks...... It hasn't been annealed then. I put the gasket in a a vice with copper jaws, standing tall, turn off the lights, light the blow torch and close the doors until there is just enough light for me to see what I'm doing. Then starting at the top of the gasket heat until you can see the copper take on a rainbow colour type effect, keep going until it starts to go Dark red. Work your way down the gasket. It is now that it gets tricky, the lower you get, the more floppy the gasket is and can not support itself, you have to with a stick of wood. Let it cool, turn it the other way up and finish the job. When its cool it will be soft, if you don't support it carefully whilst handling it well bend and possibly distort. I'm convinced this is your problem, a standard domestic blow torch won't cut it, they cant generate enough heat........hence I bought the Map gas unit Iain Edited January 23, 2023 by iain Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Drewmotty Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) I couldn’t get mine hot enough until Chilliman lent be a heavy duty mapgas torch and it still wasn’t easy. I try to get the liner protrusion down to a minimum to give the oil and water galleries a chance and have used both solid copper and steel shim head gaskets with Welseal without a problem. Having said that I only have 87mm liners rather than your 89s and match the gasket to the head to ensure that there is no gasket protruding to get hot. Edited January 23, 2023 by Drewmotty Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 2 hours ago, Drewmotty said: I couldn’t get mine hot enough until Chilliman lent be a heavy duty mapgas torch and it still wasn’t easy. I try to get the liner protrusion down to a minimum to give the oil and water galleries a chance and have used both solid copper and steel shim head gaskets with Welseal without a problem. Having said that I only have 87mm liners rather than your 89s and match the gasket to the head to ensure that there is no gasket protruding to get hot. Andrews final comment is critical too. The gasket must be matched to the head and the block, to ensure no edges overhang into the combustion area creating hot spots, which will cause running on.This is a game of patience. Once annealed the gasket will compensate easily for 0.004 upstanding of the liners. I used a 1mm gasket for quite a while until I realised my compression ratio was too high. When removed there was a clear ridge where the liners had been held down. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 Hi Nigel, I’m not familiar with the 4-cyl engines and all contributors above have much more experience but would it make sense to install the “best fitting” gasket of your collection? A proper and uniform gasket seating in the critical area at the liners is vital. Regarding annealing and chemical composition of the solid copper gasket: do you have access to someone who can do a hardness test or material identification (PMI-test)? Good luck, Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel C Posted January 23, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 Hi All, Yes I have spent some time (ooah have I spent some time ) working this latest gasket to fit each individual liner. I made sure I had a datum so when ever I placed it on the block (as I had to take most of the studs out to get it on/off) it was in the same place each time. before I fitted it to the engine I used black marker pen on the underside, I found this showed up the score line the best when using a scribe to mark around the liners. I then used my bobbin sander to take each aperture back to the scribe line. When I was happy with this I used the marker pen idea on the upper face, fitted the gasket to the block and then lower the head down with double sided tape on the face. Then, when you lift the head back off, the gasket is stuck to the head so in the position is correct. I then scribed the the squish chambers and carefully peeled the gasket off the head. once again using the bobbin sander took more material off until I had a perfect match. I wanted to eliminate running on as much as possible as It did suffer form this and I'm sure that was the due to gasket protruding into the chambers. I also wanted to get the best possible contact area as again, the "off the shelf" pre-cut gaskets didn't fit as well as they could. And I have taken off all sharpe edges in the chamber to try and help too. I've spoken to some guys I know in the next village who race prepare classics and I regularly see them down at Le Mans for a beer after they've been racing (they transport/support/pit etc 3 cars last year) and I've known them for years. Walking into their workshop today they had 11 cars all being worked on from a Le Mans style Spitfire, Griffin, Lotus x3 and a Marcos to name a few. They are used to annealing and so I will take it down there and ask if I can watch whilst they do it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 Sounds like a good plan Nigel. Good luck Iain Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 Did you ever measure the capacity of the combustion chambers?. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel C Posted January 24, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 yes, not totally accurately but it was around 54cc's? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted January 24, 2023 Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 Did you use a calculator like this one https://www.speedmaster79.com/tools/engine-compression-ratio. To find out what the gasket thickness should be? You need to measure the distance from liner top to piston top to get the deck height. Recent engine build data. Screen grab. This engine is running nicely in brothers TR3A Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel C Posted January 24, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 hey that's a great idea! As I mentioned I gave all the data to Revingtons and they advised but I will take sometime to check this against this page, thanks Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted January 24, 2023 Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 12 hours ago, Nigel C said: yes, not totally accurately but it was around 54cc's? Mine ended up at 58cc, after re-shaping the chambers, & milling 60 thou off the face. This, with 87mm liners, & the standard TR4 laminated gasket calculated out to give 9.5:1 CR. measured pressures were 200 PSI. Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel C Posted January 24, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) Soooo, took the gasket down today and the general opinion was they would leave it in front of their industrial heater for a few hours, then heat up till well and truly red and then hang in front of the heater again till cool. two out of the 6 crowded round did say they thought it may not work as it had been quenched the first time round and this may have "mess up the metalology mate". All may not be lost though, they did support a TR 4 pot car for a few seasons and have a new 40 tho gasket in stock and said I was welcome to that. After putting all my stats into Peter's On line "reddy recon-er" this 40 tho gasket would give me 9.6:1 CR so certainly not out of the realms of usability.....However, based on the my stats and the troublesome 85 tho gasket in question it worked out at 8.9:1 CR a little bit further away than Revingtons had predicted or is the on line predictor slightly out too? thanks for all your collective input so far....... Edited January 24, 2023 by Nigel C Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted January 24, 2023 Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) Bit more collected input...you don't have an 85 thou compressed "troublesome" gasket, isn't it 1.5mm ? or 0.60 thou in old money, for the solid copper gasket. Using that figure and a 54cc (your rough measurement) I get 10.45:1 ...a little high but if you take a skim out of each chamber (15 mins each) to 55cc I make it 10.3:1 which is what I aim for road use without additive. Mick Richards Edited January 24, 2023 by Motorsport Mickey Bloody spreadsheet going Tonto ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 11 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said: Bit more collected input...you don't have an 85 thou compressed "troublesome" gasket, isn't it 1.5mm ? or 0.60 thou in old money, for the solid copper gasket. Using that figure and a 54cc (your rough measurement) I get 10.45:1 ...a little high but if you take a skim out of each chamber (15 mins each) to 55cc I make it 10.3:1 which is what I aim for road use without additive. Mick Richards Still missing the unknown…… What height are the liner tops above the piston crown? If 0.020” it adds to the gasket to make best part of 0.80” Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 41 minutes ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said: Still missing the unknown…… What height are the liner tops above the piston crown? If 0.020” it adds to the gasket to make best part of 0.80” These are what I used, I assumed the other basic info that Nigel used. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted January 25, 2023 Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) Thanks Mick I had not run Nigel’s numbers in that calculator. My mistake. ASSUME makes an ASS out of U & ME Edited January 25, 2023 by BlueTR3A-5EKT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel C Posted January 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2023 55 minutes ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said: Thanks Mick I had not run Nigel’s numbers in that calculator. My mistake. ASSUME makes an ASS out of U & ME like that Peter! Yes the height from the block is 0.020 Mick, just the cc slightly different and gives me 9.6:1 CR with the 60 tho gasket and if I were to use their gasket offered @ 40 tho it would rise to 10.3 which still sounds good enough to me? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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