Moliver Posted July 15, 2022 Report Share Posted July 15, 2022 Gentlemen, Live can be a bitch: Just had a wonderful summerevening escape with my 1955 TR 2, when on my way home as a sudden 3rd gear started to make a very unpleasant hammering noise. (1st, 2nd, 4th all fine) It may be a question of academic nature to ask for the potential root cause as the box has to come out anyway so I rather ask for helpful hints for the process of getting it out. (I am expecting to get it out through the cockpit without having to get the engine out - correct ?) Next step will be to find out which type of box I have installed (as I have a TR4A engine in my TR2 I am not sure which box is attached to it) Any hint for identification model history welcome on this matter. Once I have identified this, I may ask the experts for value adding modifications. I do not have an OD installed and am not sure if I should spend the extra money on a OD box. I have heared about potential installation problems as a the OD may not fit with the exhaust if not considered with the exhaust configuration ? Further I am not sure if I should have the installed box overhauled or just get an overhauled exchange unit for it. Any advise or potential UK source ? Any input or advise very welcome.. Cheers Oliver Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted July 15, 2022 Report Share Posted July 15, 2022 (edited) Sorry to read of your gearbox issue. You are the second this week, I had a phone call from a fellow owner in UK with a noise in second. He will be doing same as you I suspect. Identification. Were you able to put the gearbox into 1 st gear without noise if the car was not stopped? If so it is probably a 4 synchro gearbox from TR4-6. If it goes “crunch” when engaging 1st it will probably be an original 3 synchro gearbox Removal. Yes the gearbox is removed through the inside of the car The engine stays in place. Some idea of the job you face. Simple but slow task to remove the gearbox transmission tunnel ( lots of screws with 7/16” af head.) Disconnect the battery!!!! Drain oil out of gearbox. Shut heater flaps. Removing the seats will ensure no dirt on them. But just taking out the cushions is enough. Tie the clutch push rod back to the slave cylinder so the hydraulics do not leak out if the piston extends. I Use wire. Disconnect speedo drive cable put plastic bag over the end to keep it clean of garage floor dirt. Jack on rear wheel to allow the propellor shaft to rotate Undo 4 prop shaft nyloc nuts and bolts note which way round they were fitted. You will need two good quality 9/16” af ring spanners Let car back to ground and chock rear wheels. Jack up engine to Remove the gearbox cross member and mount ( fiddly) slacken all the fastenings. Jack engine so the gearbox will come backwards without hitting the bodywork of the bulkhead. Look before you pull! Undo all the bell housing bolts work out how to hold the starter motor on the exhaust/chassis so it does not drop and strain it’s cable. You may need help now to pull the gearbox rearwards and lift out of car. Rotating it a bit as it comes rearward will help get the clutch lever passed the floor edge on the LH side. Lots of help on here to design/build a gearbox lifting device. Once removed you can make your decision as to whether you get your ‘box rebuilt or accept an exchange. It is worth looking at the clutch while you have access unless you know it is fairly new. Overdrive is a nice option if you do long journeys The original A type is preferable as it fits without exhaust or chassis modifications Cheers Peter W Read this it will help identification Edited July 15, 2022 by BlueTR3A-5EKT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted July 16, 2022 Report Share Posted July 16, 2022 Just in case you did not realise, "adding overdrive" actually requires a different main shaft inside the gear box, so it's not just a case of finding an overdrive & fitting it to your box. hard to guess what your 3rd gear noise could be, you may get a clue by removing the top cover of the box before removing it from the car if you know what to look for. Another consideration is to remove engine & gearbox together, as with an engine crane this can be easier than removing gearbox through the car (especialy if doing it on your own.) Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted July 16, 2022 Report Share Posted July 16, 2022 Hi Oliver, I agree with Bob. Take the GB top cover off and look inside. It could be something simple. Taking the engine and GB out together adds a little more work - but it is easy work. You can also check many other things with it all out. Good luck Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted July 16, 2022 Report Share Posted July 16, 2022 Removing the engine involves taking off the front apron, which may have rusted bolts and loose captive nuts. This adds tasks, least of all keeping all the painted edges in good order. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted July 16, 2022 Report Share Posted July 16, 2022 Hi Pete, quite so. But one day the front apron will need to come off. Do it when there is a good reason. Just do it. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Moliver Posted July 16, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2022 Hi All, Thanks for your valuable input! Just checked, the box has unsynchronized 1st and obviously is the matching (and a TR4A engine has been attached) Further it has teh dipstick from the cockpit whoch might me a further confirmation (?) If so, it might well be a thougt to go for a TR4/A exchange box as this most likely has all improvements included. Any reason why not (form/fot function) ? I will take your advise and open teh top cover prior to removal though. Thanks Oliver Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted July 16, 2022 Report Share Posted July 16, 2022 Hi Oliver, if your GB is totally dead then you may not be able to do an exchange purchase. But there are plenty of TR4-6 boxes with OD out there £1K - £1K5 Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted July 16, 2022 Report Share Posted July 16, 2022 If your existing box has the dipstick in the top cover it would be worth keeping this feature even if you do exchange the box. With a suitable cut out (hole) in the tunnel cover, it makes checking and topping up the g'box oil a simple task Rgds Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Moliver Posted July 17, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2022 Hello, after little investigation, I do have two options: A suffix TS (TR2) box in used condition which I could overhaul and swap to the one inestalled (maybe applying a "one out of two approach"). The other option would be a TR4 box at an acceptable price fully reconditioned. Question: Is the TR4 box really a 100 % suitable for an exchange to fit in a TR2 ? (known differences are: dipstick, thicker flange, full synchhormesh) Any other differences ? (tachometer drive/angle ? Shaft splines ? shiftstick ?) @Roger: The German market is quite thin on GBs with OD. Any source that you may refere to in the UK ( ecept ebay UK ) ? Cheers Oliver Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted July 17, 2022 Report Share Posted July 17, 2022 Hi Oliver, there is a club/forum member that sells GB & OD at reasonable cost - rcreweread - Richard Also TRshop and the usual suspects have then in stock. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Morrison Posted July 17, 2022 Report Share Posted July 17, 2022 Good Morning Oliver, My view would be;- 1) While you have the option, fit an overdrive box, it will transform the driving experience, The TR4, 4 synchro would be the absolute obvious choice, with 1st gear synchro, and this fit fit your car. I would NOT, remove the engine and gearbox together, thats a whole heap of unneeded work, and can cause all kinds of issues, depending on how long it is since the front apron was last removed, painting work, radiator etc., it is not necessary. Removing a non overdrive gearbox through the car is relatively straightforward, and I would say can be safely done by two people. Much greater consideration needs to be refitting the heavier as well as awkward, overdrive box. Let us know what you decide, and we will help with tips and advice. John. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted July 17, 2022 Report Share Posted July 17, 2022 (edited) To fit a later all synchro box to a sidescreen car the engine / gearbox mountings need adjusting as the later box is a bit longer. You loose the dipstick unless you do some machining, or swap top covers ( & change some parts in them) speedo output is the same. Short gearlever will fit the new box ok. Bob Edited July 17, 2022 by Lebro Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Moliver Posted July 17, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2022 Thanks all, I definitely would go for an OD box if it was available at a reasonable price - any input on potential UK sources appreciated -non discovered in Germany so far. @Roger: Thanks, I will evaluate the options -any direct PN appreciated @Bob: "gearbox mountings need adjusting as the later box is a bit longer" - what is the deifferencce in length ? just the flange thickness ? what would the required modifications be ? Cheers Oliver Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted July 17, 2022 Report Share Posted July 17, 2022 As Bob says the all (4) synchro gearbox, goes into the sidescreen car with very little effort. My own car has this type with A type overdrive fitted. Own experience has taught me to avid J type overdrive fitment in a sidescreen car chassis - many have done it successfully but I disliked the chassis mounting and exhaust modifications encountered. That was fitting in a TR2. The fitting issues you will encounter are needing 3 longer studs for the top of the gearbox flange to the engine and filing the 2 gearbox chassis mounting plate holes rearward by at least 10 mm or 3/8" This is because the gearbox is one synchro mesh longer than the 3 synchro type. see image. You will swap your existing clutch release bearing and carrier from the 3 syncro box to the 4. because it is part of the clutch type in your existing car. The speedo cable does not change. If you get a late type box you may have provision for a reversing light switch, which will allow you to add automatic type reverse lights, when reverse is selected. The 4 synchro gearbox is a simple and nice modification, the addition of overdrive is beneficial if you ever choose to drive any distance beyond your home town. That said driving around town using 2nd and 2nd overdrive is something I do. If fitting an overdrive gearbox you will also need a longer speedo cable (96" instead of the 69" you currently have), plus all the wiring, switches and relay to operate the overdrive. +1 for contacting - rcreweread - Richard on this forum. Cheers Peter W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Moliver Posted July 17, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2022 Hi Peter, All, the puzzle develops and stepwise the dust clears off - Thanks :-) All modifications described seem to be borne in the flange thickness of the later boxes - makes sense. "Own experience has taught me to avoid J type overdrive fitment in a sidescreen car chassis" - do I correctly understand, that J type ODs will go with the later boxes. Means your recommendation would be to go for an early/original TS box with an "A" OD ? Cheers Oliver Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dic Doretti Posted July 17, 2022 Report Share Posted July 17, 2022 There are also differences in the flywheel/ring gear and starter motor between the TR2 and TR4. Cheers Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted July 17, 2022 Report Share Posted July 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, Moliver said: Hi Peter, All, the puzzle develops and stepwise the dust clears off - Thanks :-) All modifications described seem to be borne in the flange thickness of the later boxes - makes sense. "Own experience has taught me to avoid J type overdrive fitment in a sidescreen car chassis" - do I correctly understand, that J type ODs will go with the later boxes. Means your recommendation would be to go for an early/original TS box with an "A" OD ? Cheers Oliver Oliver, Telephone or get in contact with Moss UK and ask for printed copies of their TR2-4A & TR5/250/6 parts catalogues. They contain good technical explanation of gear box interchangeability by Peter Cox. https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/moss-parts-accessories-catalogues.html TS serial number prefix gearbox is 3 synchro mesh type of gearbox with 'crash 1st', & A type overdrive is added to that gearbox. That assembly was used in sidescreen cars in either non overdrive or overdrive form. From TR4 to TR6 a 4 synchro gearbox was used with or without overdrive. During TR6 production in 1973 the overdrive type changed from A to J type, along with chassis modification to accept the J type overdrive unit. To fit an overdrive to your non overdrive gearbox you must also change the the gearbox mainshaft. These are a bit confusing as they are different and not interchangeable without additional internal gearbox modifications - 3 synchro type is unique to TS gearbox and is in two styles. as the front bearing changes size. For A type ONLY (course spline to fit in overdrive) - 4 synchro types used in the 4 synchro . Also two styles. as the front bearing changes size. For A type ONLY (course spline to fit in overdrive) - 4 synchro type used in 4 synchro only that is unique for J type overdrives only (fine spline to fit in overdrive) Cheers Peter W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted July 17, 2022 Report Share Posted July 17, 2022 12 minutes ago, Dic Doretti said: There are also differences in the flywheel/ring gear and starter motor between the TR2 and TR4. Cheers Richard If changing only the gearbox that should not cause him any issues. The bit I forgot to mention is that the bulge for the starter motor in the 4 synchro gearbox bell housing might touch the early TR gearbox tunnel. It was modified after 1958 when the 'Bomb' starter was replaced by the 'Long' starter and the bell housing was subsequently also modified. Easy to get round by filing the contact area of the bell housing down and re shaping the tunnel with a ball pein hammer & sand bag, where it impinges on the gearbox bulge. It needs to be belled/hammered out by 5-10 mm for the required clearance. My own car I filed and hammered. Peter W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richardtr3a Posted July 17, 2022 Report Share Posted July 17, 2022 This can be solved and the best company to use is Peter Cox and son Sports Cars. I am sure that delivery and collection can be arranged in Germany. if you need any help please let me know, I have years of experience with gearboxes ( and exhausts ) etc. Good luck Richard & B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Moliver Posted July 17, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2022 Big THANK YOU o all of you ! I will be in the UK Oct 15th to Nov 13th on business, staying in Brigton. Maybe an opportunity to buy one or the other pint to one or the other helpful chap on the forum - I will post my contact prior to the visit.... Cheers Oliver Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richardtr3a Posted July 17, 2022 Report Share Posted July 17, 2022 We live near Brighton and can help. I have a lot of experience. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ntc Posted July 17, 2022 Report Share Posted July 17, 2022 The length difference is the thickness of the bell housing and you can change the the top cover to keep the dipstick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted July 17, 2022 Report Share Posted July 17, 2022 (edited) Yes, but the 1st / 2nd selector rod, sleeve, & fork are different, also reverse fork, & sleeve. so you would need to swap the TR4 ones over to the old cover. Bob Edited July 18, 2022 by Lebro Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted July 17, 2022 Report Share Posted July 17, 2022 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Lebro said: Yes, but the 1st / 2nd selector rod, sleeve, & fork are different, so you would need to swap the TR4 ones over to the old cover. Bob I think the reverse fork is different too. But what would I know. Peter W Edited July 17, 2022 by BlueTR3A-5EKT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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