foster461 Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 (edited) One other topic that I have hesitated to bring up due to the consequences is the puff of smoke from burning oil when I start the engine but not every time. Basically a new engine with 900 miles on it since 2016. This problem was not there in 2017 but started sometime in year 2 or 3 after the rebuild. Bottom is new hepolite pistons and liners, head got all new valves and guides. I took great care with the assembly but I did not personally refurb the head. My local machine shop did that. Is this something I can narrow down with tests or will the source be too small to show up ? https://ring.com/share/2833e265-c8fe-4a32-86a1-3cea9151abcd Stan Edited August 6, 2020 by foster461 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ralph Whitaker Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 Hi Stan, sounds like a bit of oil may be getting down past the valve guides after switching off, and this burns off upon starting up again. I wouldn`t worry about it unless it started to get worse or was there all the time. These engines when new used oil, reading road tests of the day consumption of 600 miles per pint was not taken to be unusual. Ralph. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 When did you last top up the carb dash pots? I get this issue the first time after I have topped them up on my car - So I guess I overfill them and oil is displaced into the carb when the piston in the carb rises at start up. Peter W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mikej Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 1 minute ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said: When did you last top up the carb dash pots? I get this issue the first time after I have topped them up on my car - So I guess I overfill them and oil is displaced into the carb when the piston in the carb rises at start up. Peter W Have you fitted an oil feed kit between the oil gallery and the head? they can/do cause over oiling of the rockers, particularly on #1 & #2. Check the plugs for any oil fouling. Else, as Ralph says. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Graham Harris Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 Is it oil smoke or steam did you re torque the head? you may be getting a small amount of water in a cylinder. Graham Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted August 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 I last topped up the dash pots at some unknown time in the past. Graham, I thought it smelled of oil but looking at that video I am beginning to wonder. To answer your question I have not yet re-torqued the head. It scared me to death when I installed the head, 100-105 lbs ft was a lot of force behind a long torque wrench and I was sure I was going to pull the stud out of the 60 year old block. They are ARP studs and nuts but I guess this motor has gone through a lot of cycles and I should pluck up the courage and do it. today. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Charlie D Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 12 minutes ago, foster461 said: ...It scared me to death when I installed the head, 100-105 lbs ft was a lot of force behind a long torque wrench... I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks like that. Something seems very “Unnatural” when you find yourself heaving on the end of the torque wrench waiting for it to click. I just keep thinking about how much work it would entail if one of the long studs striped the thread deep in the bowels of the engine. (Worse still if the stud snapped off halfway down.) Charlie. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Graham Harris Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 Stan, I thought the same thing and after about 3000 miles I started getting pressure in the radiator and finished up pulling the head and doing the copper wire trick on a new gasket re-torqued after two warmups and now all is good again. I had some rattles in the top end and thought it was little ends but that has now got away as well. Graham Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 26 minutes ago, foster461 said: I last topped up the dash pots at some unknown time in the past. Graham, I thought it smelled of oil but looking at that video I am beginning to wonder. To answer your question I have not yet re-torqued the head. It scared me to death when I installed the head, 100-105 lbs ft was a lot of force behind a long torque wrench and I was sure I was going to pull the stud out of the 60 year old block. They are ARP studs and nuts but I guess this motor has gone through a lot of cycles and I should pluck up the courage and do it. today. Stan Hi Stan, tell me you fitted the ARP studs and nuts dry and not lubricated, like Triumph have always done ? Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 (edited) You live in a pretty flat area and havent really done huge amounts of hard driving with this car, I suspect it may have slightly glazed bores, in that clip its definitely blue smoke, What oil pressure do you have on startup? Stuart Edited August 7, 2020 by stuart Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted August 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 21 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said: Hi Stan, tell me you fitted the ARP studs and nuts dry and not lubricated, like Triumph have always done ? Mick Richards I'm pretty sure I followed the ARP instructions and used their lube but I did not torque the nuts to 110 ft lbs. I chickened out well before then, no lower than 90 ft lbs and no more than 100. Unfortunately I appear not to have made any notes at the time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 17 minutes ago, foster461 said: I'm pretty sure I followed the ARP instructions and used their lube but I did not torque the nuts to 110 ft lbs. I chickened out well before then, no lower than 90 ft lbs and no more than 100. Unfortunately I appear not to have made any notes at the time. Hhmmmm I reckon the lubed threads over torque by about 20% from memory ( there are charts you can check) so that makes a 95 lb torque clamping at near enough 115lbs applied to the block. Again from memory that block thread is a 120 lb ft max, ( and that’s not on 50 year old material, but the Triumph spec is pretty good) so you’re in gum sucking territory. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted August 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 Indeed Mick, hence my hesitation in bringing this up. I think to start I'm going to set the torque wrench to 90ft lbs and go around the head nuts and see if anything moves. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 54 minutes ago, foster461 said: Indeed Mick, hence my hesitation in bringing this up. I think to start I'm going to set the torque wrench to 90ft lbs and go around the head nuts and see if anything moves. Stan Don’t forget to release torque by 1 flat first Stan, the lubing of the threads will reduce the “ Stiction” ( sticking friction) but there will still be some there. Then set the wrench and take up the torque in one pull to 90 lb and see where they click off ( if at all). If they don’t click I would up it by 5 lb a time until they do ( no need to undo after the first time, as long as you complete the increasing of torques in a short period, minutes) The lubed surfaces should then give minimal resistance or sticking. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 FWIW I have ARP studs and had similar misgivings about torqueing them to the recommended value of 110 lbs ft lubricated. I used 105 lbs ft on my click wrench which I have calibrated against a bendy bar wrench at slightly over 100 and the block has survived. I wasn’t worried about a stud snapping as I wouldn’t have expected ARP to recommend a figure that was anywhere near the tensile limit for their studs. Rgds Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Ian Vincent said: FWIW I have ARP studs and had similar misgivings about torqueing them to the recommended value of 110 lbs ft lubricated. I used 105 lbs ft on my click wrench which I have calibrated against a bendy bar wrench at slightly over 100 and the block has survived. I wasn’t worried about a stud snapping as I wouldn’t have expected ARP to recommend a figure that was anywhere near the tensile limit for their studs. Rgds Ian Just to clarify, the cylinder head torque figures should be 105 lb ft, always have been. The reference to 110 lb was a typo I believe on another posters contribution. I didn’t correct it when spotted, my mistake I should have done, 105 lb is enough to give wussy owners a fit of the vapours never mind 110 lb ! Next time I have a scrap block I’ll destroy a thread or two In the block head stud holes by overtorquing at increasing poundages until the block cries enough. As stated the factory stud threads should be good for 120 lbs, so I’d hope the block material would stand at least that. Sounds like you are about 3 lbs over that now Ian ! (If my Memory of lubed thread increase in torque Figures Are correct). Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Charlie D Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Motorsport Mickey said: ...enough to give wussy owners a fit of the vapours... Mick. Who are you calling a wuss !!! I’ve just done this ten minutes ago and am now going to have to lie down to recover… I only did them up to 95 because, after reading your comments, I wiped all the oil off but was worried that maybe they were still a little wet. To be honest it’s left me knackered. Not to be recommended in this heat. (Maybe OK for Prince Andrew to do, but it's left me covered in sweat.) Charlie. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted August 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 2 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said: Just to clarify, the cylinder head torque figures should be 105 lb ft, always have been. The reference to 110 lb was a typo I believe on another posters contribution. I didn’t correct it when spotted, my mistake I should have done, 105 lb is enough to give wussy owners a fit of the vapours never mind 110 lb ! Next time I have a scrap block I’ll destroy a thread or two In the block head stud holes by overtorquing at increasing poundages until the block cries enough. As stated the factory stud threads should be good for 120 lbs, so I’d hope the block material would stand at least that. Sounds like you are about 3 lbs over that now Ian ! (If my Memory of lubed thread increase in torque Figures Are correct). Mick Richards The ARP instructions for the TR2 - TR4 head studs is to use their lube and torque to 110 ft lbs. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, foster461 said: The ARP instructions for the TR2 - TR4 head studs is to use their lube and torque to 110 ft lbs. Stan I know it is Stan, I’d forgotten you were using them and I’ve fitted a set ( for a customer) and explained to him that although their studs would take the torque I wasn’t sure whether the block material would. I prestretched the ARP studs and nuts by torquing 3 times to 110 lbs ft in a jig in my vice ( and measured them stretching) and then when I fitted them to the block set the torque at 90 lbs ft lubed (which I reckon gave a clamping force on the block threads at 108 lbs ft. It’s been done over 15 years and was checked for torque last year ( not me) and hasn’t moved. Mick Richards Edited August 8, 2020 by Motorsport Mickey Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 2 hours ago, Charlie D said: Mick. Who are you calling a wuss !!! I’ve just done this ten minutes ago and am now going to have to lie down to recover… I only did them up to 95 because, after reading your comments, I wiped all the oil off but was worried that maybe they were still a little wet. To be honest it’s left me knackered. Not to be recommended in this heat. (Maybe OK for Prince Andrew to do, but it's left me covered in sweat.) Charlie. Yep, those lbs ft can make you sweat. I have a Halfords 240 lb ft wrench capacity which is 3” longer than my other wrenches so less effort and I use that when the big numbers are needed. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted August 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 Update. Out of curiosity I set the torque wrench to 80 flt lbs and put some tape around the socket and marked a line so I could monitor for any rotation. The first stud in the tightening sequence rotated at least 10 degrees before the torque wrenched clicked off at 80 ft lbs. All the others had no rotation at 80 ft lbs, none at 85 ft lbs, none at 90 ft lbs. I backed them all off in sequence and retorqued to 90 ft lbs. Took it out for a longish drive just to make sure it was happy and that was uneventful other than heaps of fun driving a TR3a on a warm sunny day. These cars must have been a blast to drive in the 50's and early 60's while everyone else was driving Morris 1000's, Austin A30's or Ford 100E's. I'll let it sit in the driveway for a bit while we have some tea and see what it does when I start it to put it away for the day. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 That sounds good Stan, and the retorque was obviously needed, I hope you import some digestives to dunk with that tea. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted August 10, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 On 8/7/2020 at 8:30 AM, stuart said: You live in a pretty flat area and havent really done huge amounts of hard driving with this car, I suspect it may have slightly glazed bores, in that clip its definitely blue smoke, What oil pressure do you have on startup? Stuart Oil pressure after a "cold" (it is 90 degrees F ambient today, probably closer to 100F in the trailer) start this morning was 70lbs at idle, going up a bit when I revved the engine to back it out of the trailer. In general the oil pressure stays at around 70lbs during normal running and drops back to 50lbs at a hot idle. It has been a few days since I did the head re-torque where one head stud was clearly under torqued and I have not seen the cloud at startup since. It could be my imagination but the engine also seems to be running a couple of degrees cooler. I went out for 30 mins in varying traffic today and never saw the gauge even get to the half way point and it normally runs a little hotter than that on a hot day like today. Not quite ready to declare victory yet though, hard to believe all if that is coming from one under tightened head stud. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 15 minutes ago, foster461 said: Oil pressure after a "cold" (it is 90 degrees F ambient today, probably closer to 100F in the trailer) start this morning was 70lbs at idle, going up a bit when I revved the engine to back it out of the trailer. In general the oil pressure stays at around 70lbs during normal running and drops back to 50lbs at a hot idle. It has been a few days since I did the head re-torque where one head stud was clearly under torqued and I have not seen the cloud at startup since. It could be my imagination but the engine also seems to be running a couple of degrees cooler. I went out for 30 mins in varying traffic today and never saw the gauge even get to the half way point and it normally runs a little hotter than that on a hot day like today. Not quite ready to declare victory yet though, hard to believe all if that is coming from one under tightened head stud. Stan That oil pressure is high enough, especially the 50 at idle hot, do you give it a quick blip of the throttle before shut down as that can leave a fair bit of oil up top that then trickles down the guides to burn on start up. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted August 10, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 13 minutes ago, stuart said: That oil pressure is high enough, especially the 50 at idle hot, do you give it a quick blip of the throttle before shut down as that can leave a fair bit of oil up top that then trickles down the guides to burn on start up. Stuart. Nothing weird when I shut it of, just park it and turn the key. I'll leave it for a couple of days while I do some TR6 stuff in the cool garage and see what it does after sitting for a while. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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