earckens Posted January 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 25 minutes ago, iain said: The clutch pin is in the correct place....it looks wrong, but for TRs the lower hole is correct. I had this problem , feared the taper pin had broken, but a replacement slave cylinder was all that was required. Set up with the correct free play. This is important. The return spring is missing and it’s location tab item 135 The workshop manual is very clear on how to set this up. After filling the master cylinder with transmission oil EP80W up to top, the clutch pedal did its job again: I could shift gears with engine running. But indeed both spring 136 and its plate 135 ( Moss clutch assembly TR4 ) is missing, and per kind submissions of others above and yours I will replace the slaver cylinder item 100, and all related parts. What a relief that the gearbox might not have to be removed.. wait and see how things move now. But it might be Easter before we can drive again, back to Belgium tomorrow (hoping the French will not strike on our TGV return trip ). Greetings and thanks! Erik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
keith1948 Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 More info........ The pushrod on my 4A is on the next hole up compared to yours. Just makes it line up better with the slave cylinder. Not sure now that it is anything more than just loss of hydraulic fluid caused by faulty seal inside the slave cylinder. Hopefully that is all that it is. keith p.s happy new year Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stillp Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 1 minute ago, earckens said: After filling the master cylinder with transmission oil EP80W Wrong Erik! That oil will damage the seals in both the master and slave cylinders as well as the flexible hose, you need to clean that out with some meths or brake cleaner. Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
keith1948 Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 Just now, stillp said: Wrong Erik! That oil will damage the seals in both the master and slave cylinders as well as the flexible hose, you need to clean that out with some meths or brake cleaner. Pete Yes agree. Wrong fluid. EP80W is for transmission. What you need is dot4 brake fluid. At least it has proved what the problem was. You now have a new problem of removing all the EP80W oil that you have put in but looking on the bright side at least you know you don't have to remove a gearbox. Keith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 Hi Erik, about the oil: The gear oil you have put in will ruin the seals in both the master and slave cil. Originally, brake fluid, like dot 3 or dot 4 was used. They are compatible with each other but not with gear oil or silicone brake fluid (SBF) or engine oil etc. Best is now to remove the MC and SC and have them reconditioned. I had mine done in the UK by Past Parts. Then clean the piping and re-install with either dot 4 or SBF, choices choices. Second choice is to flush liberal with brake fluid (dot 3 or 4), assuming that is what you have in there now. But if you have SBF, it may worsen the situation. I would not buy new items, they can be of a lesser quality than original reconditioned. what about the support on this forum on new years day:) Great isn’t it? Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
earckens Posted January 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 1 hour ago, RobH said: (...) What is puzzling me is that even with a loss of fluid and no spring 136, there shouldn't be much free movement of the operating rod. There should only be a couple of mm of play. If that is what you have then ignore all my talk of linkage problems. Hi robH, thank you for that clarification! For the clutch problem: filling up the master reservoir gave the clutch pedal push again its pushing back feeling instead of pushin into thin air; and I can again, engine running, shift gears and move the car without grinding anything. But when looking underneath (car on bridge) the vertical rod does not get pushed back forward when clutch pedal is released, I can push it forward by hand until the lever with the 3 holes is vertical. But there I suspect the missing spring 136 and plate 135 (Moss Girling clutch hydraulics). And possibly too (dixit Z320): worn seal in slave cylinder). 1 hour ago, Fireman049 said: Hi Erik ~ I think you'll find that the useless taper pin has sheared as in my case. I reinforced the clutch fork with a small nut and bolt. You can also use a roll pin. I'd love to meet the idiot that invented the taper pin!! Happy New Year ~ Tom. (...) Fireman049: to get that job done, gearbox removal ? Grts, Erik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
earckens Posted January 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Waldi said: Hi Erik, about the oil: The gear oil you have put in will ruin the seals in both the master and slave cil. Originally, brake fluid, like dot 3 or dot 4 was used. They are compatible with each other but not with gear oil or silicone brake fluid (SBF) or engine oil etc. Best is now to remove the MC and SC and have them reconditioned. I had mine done in the UK by Past Parts. Then clean the piping and re-install with either dot 4 or SBF, choices choices. Second choice is to flush liberal with brake fluid (dot 3 or 4), assuming that is what you have in there now. But if you have SBF, it may worsen the situation. I would not buy new items, they can be of a lesser quality than original reconditioned. what about the support on this forum on new years day:) Great isn’t it? Waldi Oh thanks for letting me know! I just ordered a new slave cylinder, spring etc.. from Moss, replacement asap and then also drain the transmission oil I put in just now. Reconditioning: thanks for letting me know, I will cancel that Moss order. Can you give Past Parts references please? Yes indeed, what fantastic responses here, and especially on this day (nobody with hangover?)!! EDIT: I found Past Parts, sent them an email. Greetings, Erik Edited January 1, 2020 by earckens added info Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fireman049 Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 13 minutes ago, earckens said: 14 minutes ago, earckens said: Hi robH, thank you for that clarification! For the clutch problem: filling up the master reservoir gave the clutch pedal push again its pushing back feeling instead of pushin into thin air; and I can again, engine running, shift gears and move the car without grinding anything. But when looking underneath (car on bridge) the vertical rod does not get pushed back forward when clutch pedal is released, I can push it forward by hand until the lever with the 3 holes is vertical. But there I suspect the missing spring 136 and plate 135 (Moss Girling clutch hydraulics). And possibly too (dixit Z320): worn seal in slave cylinder). Fireman049: to get that job done, gearbox removal ? Grts, Erik 13 minutes ago, earckens said: Fireman049: to get that job done, gearbox removal ? Grts, Erik Hi Erik ~ Obviously ~ but I had no alternative. Regards ~ Tom. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
keith1948 Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 Erik The rubber seal for the slave cylinder is available as a kit. Just pull out the rod (after removing the pivot pin from the lever) and you will see the seal on the end of the rod (may need to blow it out by getting someone to press clutch pedal slightly). If the bore of the cylinder is ok then new seal will work. Clean out the system by flushing through with fresh brake fluid dot 4. Don't use any other type of brake fluid (dot 5 is silicone and not compatible with dot 4). I would also advise lining up the cylinder with the push rod (mine is on next hole up on the lever arm). With the rod at the angle as it is now then the cylinder is pushing the rod at an angle which is maybe the cause of the seal failure. It should work ok (mine works fine) in the different hole. On question of new parts it is a matter of choice but my 'new' master brake cylinder has worked fine for a few years now. I keep some spare seals etc handy all the time after rebuilding a friends car braking system on a trip to the south of France. A spare can of brake fluid in the boot can also be useful. Keith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 Hi Erik, I have sent my MC and SC (and the master brake cylinder) to Past Parts, they have installed a thin SS liner in each of them too, so less sensitive to corrosion, which is a common reason for failure. I asked to electro plate the bodies too, they came back as new (or better). I used SBF for both systems, but if you have conventional hydraulic brake fluid (dot 3 or 4) in your brake system, I would stick with that for the clutch system too, to avoid mixing them, which will give problems. Certainly not what you want on your brake system! Maybe you can ask the previous owner (PO) what he used? Regards, Waldi And fully agree with Keith above, who just replied a moment before I did Quote Link to post Share on other sites
earckens Posted January 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 2 hours ago, stillp said: Wrong Erik! That oil will damage the seals in both the master and slave cylinders as well as the flexible hose, you need to clean that out with some meths or brake cleaner. Pete What is "mets"? Methanol? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stillp Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 Yes, mostly methanol. IPA (Iso-propyl alcohol) would work too, or even vodka! The flexible hose will need replacing though. Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
earckens Posted January 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 27 minutes ago, keith1948 said: Erik The rubber seal for the slave cylinder is available as a kit. (...) I keep some spare seals etc handy all the time after rebuilding a friends car braking system on a trip to the south of France. A spare can of brake fluid in the boot can also be useful. Keith Hi Keith, can you please give a reference for this kit? And thanks for the spare parts advice. Especially since we here in the south do not have mechanics I would even trust unlocking a bolt to. Erik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
earckens Posted January 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, stillp said: Yes, mostly methanol. IPA (Iso-propyl alcohol) would work too, or even vodka! The flexible hose will need replacing though. Pete Ok, thanks. Would Cognac do too? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
keith1948 Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 31 minutes ago, earckens said: Hi Keith, can you please give a reference for this kit? And thanks for the spare parts advice. Especially since we here in the south do not have mechanics I would even trust unlocking a bolt to. Erik Couldn't get onto Moss site but here is the part (item 47) on the Rimmers site https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-GRID200013 As you can see there is also a spring inside which can break but I don't know if this part is available separately. As for using Cognac - best to drink that to celebrate once the job is done Keith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
earckens Posted January 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 Keith, in the Rimmers drawing there is a spring with varying diameter, without a reference number: does that come with the slave cylinder? And also: spring item 64 which I suspect is missing on my clutch assembly: where does that need to get attached? For the transmission oil I added by mistake, I will flush that out of the system tomorrow; hopefully a good clean with methanol will save the day. DOT4 is used in the brake system, same I will then add in the clutch hydraulics. Rimmers seal kit will be ordered. Erik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 The spring goes from item 64 to a small drill on the lower edge of item 49. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
keith1948 Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) Erik The spring with varying diameter I think will only be available if you buy a new slave cylinder. Unless of course someone has an old cylinder with a good spring inside that you could use. If yours is ok then no problem. Item 64 hooks onto item 63 - a small plate that is held on item 61 - the pivot pin. The other end of the spring hooks into a small hole in item 49 (as in the post above). Suggest you take out the innards of the slave cylinder to see what is required. Most likely it is the rubber ring seal that has perished or been deformed. I think you should be ok if you remove all the oil tomorrow. It takes a while for the rubber to be attacked by the oil. Problem will be removing it all. Keith p.s. make sure you get the seal the correct way round with wide diameter facing inwards as in Rimmers diagram. Edited January 1, 2020 by keith1948 additional info Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) It fits like this. The spring I have is slightly different though. There is a small hole on the bottom edge of the mounting bracket for the cylinder end of the spring Edited January 1, 2020 by RobH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
earckens Posted January 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, RobH said: It fits like this. The spring I have is slightly different though. There is a small hole on the bottom edge of the mounting bracket for the cylinder end of the spring (...) Thàt spring is definitely not present on my clutch! Thanks for the photo and the explainers Keith and Rob. Amazing what support I get here on New Year's day! Erik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob Salisbury Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 2 hours ago, earckens said: What is "mets"? Methanol? Meths, short for Industrial Methylated Spirit .... also known as IMS, Ethyl Alcohol or Ethanol, ... but not Methanol this is Methyl Alcohol. Cheers Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
earckens Posted January 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) EDIT: contents removed, not relevant to topic, sorry for the inconvenience. Edited January 14, 2020 by earckens message contents not relevant for topic subject Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) Hi Erik, not to make you unsure: this also works on the TR2-4A without this "pull back" spring! My TR4A had also no spring there when I bought it, and for the first year I drove it. Without this "pull back" spring the clutch diaphgram pushes the piston of the clutch slave back in "any" position. This is how it works on the TR6 and is called "self adjusting" because the slave piston moves every time in a position due to the wearout of the friction plate. But on the TR6 there is the above mentioned spring IN the slave cylinder. And this is different, a "push" spring to press the release bearing always slightly in contact with the diaphragm spring of the clutch. This way it works on all modern cars. On the TR2-4A the spring is a "pull back" spring, the release bearing comes free every time. This is not self adjusting, you have to adjust a gap, because with more wearout of the friction plate the gap becomes smaller. Hope that helps more than it irritates. Ciao, Marco Edited January 2, 2020 by Z320 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
earckens Posted January 2, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 Oh now I understand why there is no "gap" to be adjusted as in cars since the 80's! Thanks! Erik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted January 2, 2020 Report Share Posted January 2, 2020 You got it! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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