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TR3A Performance Engine Rebuild Advice

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Nice to have the power low down good and tractable. 

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Rich,

You have a PM.

Mick Richards

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Hamish -  I'm sure it's not that powerful but it feels it when you drive it which is what it's all about really - well when on the road but no good for you when sprinting/racing, although driveability is still all important.

A seasoned enthusiast once said to me , horsepower sells cars quickly, but torque makes them go quickly!

Cheers Rich

 

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Re supercharging, Nothing beats it for a road car..lots of low rpm torque. And it is much easier on the crank etc than achieving the same bhp by going for more rpm. No need for fancy cam the stock is OK. Maybe limit boost to around 5 or 6psi when running on 97RON, to avoid knock

Allards book is useful introduction. And this on-line copy of a book by Eldred Norman who drove a blown TR2 to fourth place in an Oz Gp:

http://www.fefcholden.org.au/techinfo/supercharge/index.html

Peter

 

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Many thanks Rich for you answer.

My diesel addiction was with a 3 doors Golf 6 2.0 with minor mechanical modifications and a very good reprogrammation. So 1,4 tons for 400Nm was really  ... Goooood. Saddly it was a lazy DSG 6 box, not as bad as the 7 speed, but not strong enough for the torque so i preferred to stop playing before being disappointed. Anyway now my reference is rather high for a 2 Lt / 4cylinders

Light is right.  Yes. So i also planned to look at what i can take off, but that remains reversible. So i think it will be carbon bonnet and boot that i can make myself for a reasonable cost as carbon + epoxy + wax and peel ply is under 100€/kg

I'm 53. When i was very young the famous crazy french engines were equipped with compressors. My uncle had a 203 with a compressor. So just like "the dolce vita" film  brought me to buy my TR, this irrational quest for my child dreams will weight in my choices. The other point going in that direction is that i do not like screaming engines. Now if reason tells me it is a good compromise to have a hot cam, i will forget my vintage psychosis. But you also tell me a high rev TR engine is not the best possible choice. So ...

For the sensible heat question with a compressor above the exhaust, the constant speed sin we now easily commit in France were 80Km/h is the new standard, the last remaining pleasure on open roads is, acceleration. So i guess it is a modest problem.

About the box and OD, i changed everything 20 years ago and did just 40,000Km since and used low friction additives. Everything is silent and smooth.  TR3 box and OD seem strongly built. Unless a stag box+OD is affordable i would prefer not to have this spending to add. 

About 89mm liners, are the standard kits strong enough ? Used with a compressor my idea was that best material was a minimum. Any positive experiences with standard grade liner and pistons, ...And a compressor ?

About budget, my pocket is not the Mariana Trench.

 

Edited by Kistinie

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7 minutes ago, Kistinie said:

Many thanks Rich for you answer.

My diesel addiction was with a 3 doors Golf 6 2.0 with minor mechanical modifications and a very good reprogrammation. So 1,4 tons for 400Nm was really  ... Goooood. Saddly it was a lazy DSG 6 box, not as bad as the 7 speed, but not strong enough for the torque so i preferred to stop playing before being disappointed. Anyway now my reference is rather high for a 2 Lt / 4cylinders

Light is right.  Yes. So i also planned to look at what i can take off, but that remains reversible. So i think it will be carbon bonnet and boot that i can make myself for a reasonable cost as carbon + epoxy + wax and peel ply is under 100€/kg

I'm 53. When i was very young the famous crazy french engines were equipped with compressors. My uncle had a 203 with a compressor. So just like "the dolce vita" film  brought me to buy my TR, this irrational quest for my child dreams will weight in my choices. The other point going in that direction is that i do not like screaming engines. Now if reason tells me it is a good compromise to have a hot cam, i will forget my vintage psychosis. But you also tell me a high rev TR engine is not the best possible choice. So ...

For the sensible heat question with a compressor above the exhaust, the constant speed sin we now easily commit in France were 80Km/h is the new standard, the last remaining pleasure on open roads is, acceleration. So i guess it is a modest problem.

About the box and OD, i changed everything 20 years ago and did just 40,000Km since and used low friction additives. Everything is silent and smooth.  TR3 box and OD seem strongly built. Unless a stag box+OD is affordable i would prefer not to have this spending to add. 

About 89mm liner, are the standard kits enough ? Used with a compressor my idea was that best material was a minimum. Any positive experiences with standard grade liner and pistons, ...And a compressor ?

About budget, my pocket is not the Mariana Trench.

 

There are several Judson-blown four cylinder TRs around.

Judson links: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/judson/tech/index.php

But by the time you've engineered brackets, pulleys, vanes, oiler etc......the Moss kit looks good value to me.

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45 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Rich,

You have a PM.

Mick Richards

Mick - nothing come through yet - I see the PM I sent Francois hasn't been read by him yet either so I 'm wondering if it's a funtionality issue with the forum stuff apparently going on at the moment - have sent you a test PM to see if it works from me!

cheers  Rich

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Hi Rich, 

Sent an hour ago, check your PM list to make sure you are not full capacity.

Mick Richards

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6 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Hi Rich, 

Sent an hour ago, check your PM list to make sure you are not full capacity.

Mick Richards

Mick - I've just got an old PM from you about engine rebuilding but not presumably the PM you sent me earlier - my mailbox has got space in it for new PMs - I sent you a test PM - did you get that?

Cheers   Rich 07954 252 338

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Rich. I read your kind message but was busy on other fronts. Brought the answer in my post.
Peter, i agree. The integrated Moss option is interesting, and with the SU, retains a classical look and also remains simple

Driving an MKI light Elise with a hot engine, lack of torque was my only deception. Once you have tasted cars with large amount of low end torque i think it is very difficult to forget it. That is why i do not want to test a Tesla until i can afford one.

So in short, for the second engine from a TR4 untouched donor i'm building, the remaining questions are:

- With a compressor, and a standard compression unskimmed (and capacity not measured yet after the grinding i did) TR4 head, what engine capacity with 95Ron as 98 is becoming rare and E85. By instinct i would think that it is wise to keep compression low and add more boost from the compressor like on a turbo engine. I will read all what i can about this aspect to find answers.

- what cam.  I have a TR4 one that seems to be in correct condition. May higher lift help ? I guess yes.

-Is injection such an important gain ? For flex fuel ability sure. For historic coherence .... Far less.

 

 

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12 hours ago, rcreweread said:

A seasoned enthusiast once said to me , horsepower sells cars quickly, but torque makes them go quickly!

Cheers Rich

 

Horsepower is how fast you hit the tree, Torque is how far you moved the tree!

Stuart.

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I would tend to say:

- Torque at a given rpm is what you feel as the power, to change your speed.
    Engine torque is reduced by the gear ratio to torque at the wheel - this is what accelarates you really.

- Horsepower is only valid at this rpm: it is actually this formula:       horsepower =  torque x rpm
      as long as you do not drive with this rprm, you never get this horsepower. Most People would be amazed, how few horses are working most of time 

So increasing low end torque is what you feel as "power" during normal cruising - on the track, while revving high, you feel the horsepower.

 

So I would be tempted to install a Judson Kit - the Moss-Kit may be not legal in Germany, especially in respect of my historic Registration (as it is to modern)

Regards, Johannes

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7 hours ago, Kistinie said:

Rich. I read your kind message but was busy on other fronts. Brought the answer in my post.
Peter, i agree. The integrated Moss option is interesting, and with the SU, retains a classical look and also remains simple

Driving an MKI light Elise with a hot engine, lack of torque was my only deception. Once you have tasted cars with large amount of low end torque i think it is very difficult to forget it. That is why i do not want to test a Tesla until i can afford one.

So in short, for the second engine from a TR4 untouched donor i'm building, the remaining questions are:

- With a compressor, and a standard compression unskimmed (and capacity not measured yet after the grinding i did) TR4 head, what engine capacity with 95Ron as 98 is becoming rare and E85. By instinct i would think that it is wise to keep compression low and add more boost from the compressor like on a turbo engine. I will read all what i can about this aspect to find answers.

- what cam.  I have a TR4 one that seems to be in correct condition. May higher lift help ? I guess yes.

-Is injection such an important gain ? For flex fuel ability sure. For historic coherence .... Far less.

 

 

My talk summarises the essentials:  https://supertrarged.wordpress.com/2015/08/10/iwe-tech-seminar-supercharging-trs-for-the-road/

Allards book is highly recomended:

image.png.7f92b2c7cc505830e90ba3d66fe16d4d.png

With standard compression of 9.5 a TR head  wont detonate on 95 RON until ca 4 psi boost, However more boost, 5 to 6 psi, is probably safe from knock for a few seconds as it takes time for heat to accumulate in the combustion chamber. Above 3500 rpm even more boost will be safe as there is no time for knock to happwn and the extra turbulence also prevents it. The relationship between rpm and boost ( at wide open throttle ) is difficult to predict. Another reason to follow the Moss design based upon the Eaton blower

Stock cam is correct, overlap wastes boost.  A standard engine in decent condition is fine, supercharging doesnt need rpm it is like adding a cylider or two! Retarding the cam ro give more time for the exhaust gases to exit is a useful trick but not essential.

If it proves to knock on 95 RON then there is the option of boost retard ignition or water injection. I gather the 4 cylider engines have copper decompression gaaskets off the shelf. But best avoid lowering the compression ratio as it can make the engine feel a bit soft off-boost.

The carb must never run lean under boost, and getting an SU feeding a blower to run lean at cruise is a challenge, as Allard point out. So to get cruise economy will require back suction control as described on my blog. 

Avoid injection, if an injector goes lean the piston will melt under boost in a very few seconds, silently.

Heat is the enemy so build a cold air intake to the SU.

Peter

 

 

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I've recently had my TR3a fitted with  fuel in injection. The work has been carried out for me by TRGB using Jenvey Heritage throttle bodies running with an Emerald ECU. The throttle bodies look like Weber side draught carbs so the under bonnet view is good. The engine was previously rebuilt with 89mm liners, Phoenix exhaust , reworked head, TR4a inlet manifold, a cam designed for torque and electronic ignition. On the Emerald rolling road  before the FI was fitted the car showed 116bhp  at 5525 rpm and 129.6 lb ft  at 3890 rpm. After fitting the numbers are 137.6 bhp at 5430 rpm and  145 lb ft at 3790 rpm. The change in  drivability  is excellent pulling from just under 1k rpm in any gear with tick-over rock solid at 750 rpm. Power delivery is absolutely smooth  right through to the red line at 5500 rpm.  Starting is improved, today after standing for 4 weeks the engine fired on the first push of the button. It hasn't been a cheap conversion but with the Moss kit at just under £5k it compares well. I'll be pleased to try and answer any questions if anyone is interested.

Tim

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Tom

Not as far as I am aware, no mention of it in my documentation and bills. Starting procedure from cold is turn on ignition, wait for fuel pressure to build up, only 4 or 5 seconds and then press start button. From my very limited understanding of these systems the ECU determines the cold start requirements. I've attached an underbonnet view to show the set-up.

Tim

5X5A2114.jpg

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Tim,

Many thanks for sharing this solution i haven't found when investigating the EFI option.
The visual result is perfect as, except for the air filters, it is almost impossible to detect the age of the installation. And the HP/torque results are a little better than i would have expected.

With your solution the aspirated option is coming back in the race.

About Moss, i found the installation book
https://manualzz.com/doc/28146672/tr3-tr3b-supercharger

Another option has come to my mind. The electric compressor. 
https://www.smmt.co.uk/2017/06/dbs-electric-supercharger-esc-engine-downsizing/

Pro:
- Low cost
- Rather flexible to install 
- Boost from idle, strong low rpm gain
-I suppose blow through the SU should be ok just with the carb over fill connected to in air output of the e-compressor to balance fuel pressure in the constant level cuve, to increased air pressure 

Con:
- high Boost cost a lot of amps
- Home made, so time consuming as no commercial kit exist
- Does not look historically coherent.
 

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3 hours ago, Kistinie said:

Tim,

Many thanks for sharing this solution i haven't found when investigating the EFI option.
The visual result is perfect as, except for the air filters, it is almost impossible to detect the age of the installation. And the HP/torque results are a little better than i would have expected.

With your solution the aspirated option is coming back in the race.

About Moss, i found the installation book
https://manualzz.com/doc/28146672/tr3-tr3b-supercharger

Another option has come to my mind. The electric compressor. 
https://www.smmt.co.uk/2017/06/dbs-electric-supercharger-esc-engine-downsizing/

Pro:
- Low cost
- Rather flexible to install 
- Boost from idle, strong low rpm gain
-I suppose blow through the SU should be ok just with the carb over fill connected to in air output of the e-compressor to balance fuel pressure in the constant level cuve, to increased air pressure 

Con:
- high Boost cost a lot of amps
- Home made, so time consuming as no commercial kit exist
- Does not look historically coherent.
 

A wet blower with a atmospheric SU is simplest, but cannot be intercooled

The electric compressor wont push enough air for a TR engine, you would need two, and a bigger battery. It could not be fuel-wetted so injection will be needed. But it could be used with an intercooler. The compressor will need a bypass to allow cruise operation,which will be most of the time. To me, it would be an experiment too far.

Eaton blowers are avialable cheap off ebay, so are SU carbs. if you can find a machinist to turn pulleys and fabriate  manifolds etc the Moss price might be undercut, but the cost of the machine-shop one-off work can be considerable. If you have friend with a lathe and Tig welder , that might be the most rewarding. However if a Moss kit had been available in 1990 I'd have taken that route myself.

Peter

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Peter,

An electric compressor can offer 3PSI. That is modest, but, getting this from 800 Rpm gives certainly a lot of drivability and confort.
Another aspect is that enough space could be found in the TR3 to hide the compressor and keep the engine bay not too strange.
Last point. I also imagined two or 3 small windmill in the mouth to recharge the battery, to convert the air drag in free electric energy to feed the compressor. 

In the e compressor version, the big deals are the pipe work and the micro controller to smart drive the e compressor with the throttle position as it won't be a linear function.


 

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2 hours ago, Kistinie said:

Peter,

An electric compressor can offer 3PSI. That is modest, but, getting this from 800 Rpm gives certainly a lot of drivability and confort.
Another aspect is that enough space could be found in the TR3 to hide the compressor and keep the engine bay not too strange.
Last point. I also imagined two or 3 small windmill in the mouth to recharge the battery, to convert the air drag in free electric energy to feed the compressor. 

In the e compressor version, the big deals are the pipe work and the micro controller to smart drive the e compressor with the throttle position as it won't be a linear function.


 

And fuelling ?  Carbs wont work with that electrci compressor.

Is that 3 psi at 800 rpm? if so, at 3000 rpm the boost will be less than 1psi. That's not worth the experiment, to me.

Aerogenerator in fron of radiator? do the calculations first. A100 watt wind turbine has 4 foot diameter blades, https://lowenergysupermarket.com/renewable-energy/1363/100w_wind_turbine_12v-les

However, the ecompressor will only neeed to work for a very few seconds after each standing start, so Id not worry about re-charging the battery.

Good idea to drive a supercharged TR if you can locate an owner, a boost of 6 psi at 3000 rpm really brings the engien to life. The ecompressor wont do that.

Peter

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Peter,
As i am rather fed up with leaking SU and playing with spring and needles to balance the mix, injection is high on my options list, so in this case, increased air pressure won't be a problem. Now as far as i can remember on a metro turbo the HIF6 SU was after the turbo so i guess it is possible, at least with HIF SU.



It is true that industry already uses electric compressors as a supplement on regular turbo (Audi by exemple).
Now, i really think that pure electric solution remains a difficult, but good option to dig:
 

 

Edited by Kistinie

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And while we are in the bizarre world, here is what i currently use on my 2003 Peugeot 807 2.2 HDI 5 speeds. The net result is a good torque gain and a gas milage that is the best ever seen on such car (47mpg at 60mph). For my TR3 i will certainly retain water vapour injection as it is a well known improvement for milage, torque, HP, protecting from detonation and keep cylinder head clean. The only difference with conventional devices is that i make the mist with ultrasound. I also tested non thermal plasma applied in the incoming air that gives 5% milage gain, less noise and a smoother engine.

https://www.facebook.com/francois.bouquin/media_set?set=a.2549834301699614&type=3

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5 hours ago, Kistinie said:

For short period boost, compressed air is another funny option, an alternative that gives boost, and cooling at the same time. I wonder if it has been used in the 60's ?

http://casupercharging.com/

Nitrous oxide will be simpler, and off-the-shelf. 

 

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