New Bloke Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Three years ago, my 4A developed a water leak, I drove it into the garage and there it stayed. A new enthusiasm has now gripped me, so a few weekends ago I took off the head to find each pot full of water. I soaked this up and put a shed load of WD40 into the pots to try and free them. The engine is seized solid and won't move. This weekend I dropped the sump and managed to disconnect the big ends from pistons 1 & 4, however due to the position of the crank, I can only move the 1 & 4 pistons up about an inch before the big end catches on the block side. Pots 2 & 3 are in a tricky position, I can get at one big end bolt but the far one is very badly placed to get a spanner on it (it has scraped knuckles written all over it). The engine is still seized and even gentle persuasion with a block of wood and a clup hammer won't move pistons 2 & 3. Any ideas??? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ashley James Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Generally the rings rust and weld to the bores, so you're going to need new liners and pistons really. Re-ringing might work, but....... You'll probably have to take the liners out with the pistons in them and put them on a press to release them. Ash Quote Link to post Share on other sites
New Bloke Posted February 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Thanks Ash, Oh-er, this sounds quite expensive, I was hoping for a new set of rings, a quick hone and down the garage for an MOT!!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianC Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Unfortunately, simple problems have a tendency to turn out much bigger. Apart from the piston/liner situation, you will also have to find out what caused the leak in the first place and what other damage may have been done as a result. At least get the head checked for cracks and warping. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
New Bloke Posted February 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Thanks Brian, good idea, I assumed it was a head gasket but a head check wouldn't hurt (applies to me as well as the car) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
D Murton Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Hi Pour some diesel in the bores & leave for a day or two to soak. Then try the block of wood & hammer again. I find diesel much better than WD40 as it doesnt evaporate so quickly.. Good luck Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Hi New Bloke, have you a name! Even if you manage to remove the pistons from the liner there will be rust damage to the liners that may break the replacement rings. You will need new liners/pistons - good all round piston/liner sets are available from the TRshop at apprx £250. Unless you can remove the big-end caps you will be limited in how to free the pistons. Is it possible to put a big/long spanner on the bolt head at the front of the crank - jack it up on the spanner to load the crank and then hit the pistons. Aluminium (or even steel) bars are better than wood and big hammers better than small. WD40 is not a penetrating/release fluid (in fact it is overrated for many applications).Use PlusGas or an eqivalent. As Brian states look carefully for the cause of the leak. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MadMarx Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 A few tips to .... Crank seized in position....spechial wrenches. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
New Bloke Posted February 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Thanks Everyone, mine looks nowhere near as bad as Mad MArx's engine, in face despite water sitting in the bores for so long there is no rust visible on the cylinders. I will take some phoots toninght and post them tomorrow.. Thanks again to everyone who posted Tim (not just New Bloke) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
New Bloke Posted February 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 (edited) I have heard that Tizer is one of the best freeing agents around, I'm too chicken to try that myself, going to give Roger's tip a go at the weekend, just have to work out which side I need to jack it to make the middle two pistons come down...... Edited February 27, 2012 by New Bloke Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 New Bloke: !! Daves got the idea regarding the best lubricant with diesel, if you can move 2 of the pistons an inch then the other 2 are likely to be movable also, whats the condition inside the sump ? is the crank Titanic grade cast rust or are the big ends in decent condition. Diesel ...lots into the bores and let it drain through, (plastic sheet on the floor is good here). Roger also has an idea which I've used myself with the preloaded bar onto the crank front bolt and then large blows from your mate ( you know someone who knows what your name is ! ) onto the pistons and see if the crank can be persuaded to move. If the crank condition suggests lots of water has passed through and you have rusty bearing journals then just slacking off the mains by a smidgeon to allow extra clearance before offering up even more violence may help. You don't have to be too afraid here of causing damage, the pistons have to come out and if Christians drill the pistons pass through sturdy bolts and use the head studs to support a "jacking bridge" to wind them up up after the previous 2 ideas come to naught then so be it. Best of luck with this. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
New Bloke Posted February 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 I will take some photos tonight and post them, the sump was full of oil, white sludge (emusified oil/water?) and water. The water came out first (which sort of makes sense) and I think the big ends are in pretty good nick. I was quite taken aback by the lack of nasties within the engine and I think that is mainly down to oil floating and leaving the brearing covered in oil....... Thanks again everyone Tim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ashley James Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Tim I think it might be wise to whip the engine out, strip it out completely and rebuild it carefully from scratch. For a start you need to find out where the water came from and you need the peace of mind you get from knowing that you didn't miss anything. Ash Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 27, 2012 Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Hi Tim, well, you've got lots of ideas now. Don't give up, the thing will come to pieces. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
New Bloke Posted February 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2012 Definitely not going to give up on this, Here are a few photos Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YankeeTR5 Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 Put the tranny in 4th gear and rock the car back and forth. Gently at first, but if more force is needed.... This will free the two remaining pistons. While best practices may dictate rebuilding as others have said, I have started a 4 in similiar shape and managed to then drive it from Texas to California with nothing more than an oil change after unfreezing the engine. These 4-pots are remarkable in what they will take before completely expiring. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chilliman Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 Tim, from the pictures she doesn't look too bad at all, pound to a pinch the diesel will do the job. good luck John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
New Bloke Posted February 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 Last two posts have lightened my heart, I really didn't relish "whipping the engine out", last time I did that it took me two whole days to get the gearbox lined up again.......... I can't put the tranny in 4th as it is up on axle stands but I like the idea of the bloody great spanner on the front of the crank, I presume that is the conical bit where the fan used to be before I fitted a Kenlowe. Does anyone know the size spanner I need for that as I don't have one that big and need to go home via Machine Mart? Thanks Tim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
manray1 Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Does anyone know the size spanner I need for that as I don't have one that big and need to go home via Machine Mart? 11/8 Edited February 28, 2012 by manray1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 Hi Tim, why not take the engine and gearbox out together. It doesn;t involve too much more work and joining the box and engine becomes a doddle. You can check the clutch plate etc and makes playing with the engine so much more enjoyable Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ashley James Posted February 28, 2012 Report Share Posted February 28, 2012 I agree with Roger, if you're worried, take the gearbox and engine out. I've tried to free off engines many times and if I have been successful, they've burnt enormous quantities of oil because the rings have corroded and stuck in the gaps. I think that if you get that liner with the piston in it onto a press, you'll be surprised at how many tons it takes to free it. I'm also pretty sure it's the only way you'll free it unless you're amazingly lucky. Ash Quote Link to post Share on other sites
New Bloke Posted February 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) Thanks to all of the well wishers here, I'm trying to do as little work on it as possible as I much prefer driving a TR to laying under it. If I can get away with a hone and new rings, I will do so. I have booked to have my head examined by Baldynes in Biggin Hill on Saturday, if that checks out okay I will spend the rest of the weekend freeing up the engine. Thanks again everyone for such helpful advice, If it appears I am ignoring it, then that is becasue I am lazy and not because I don't appreciate it. Thanks again Cheers Tim Edited February 29, 2012 by New Bloke Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 Hi Tim, I like the expression 'getting your head examined'. We've all had it done If you have to take a big hammer to free the engine you may need to examine the little end bushes etc. Best of luck Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisR-4A Posted February 29, 2012 Report Share Posted February 29, 2012 Try some heat - I managed to free a trunnion on an A40 using pentrating oil and a 3KW fan heater, As a last resort drill a hole about 3/8 through the top of the piston just off centre enough to miss the gugeon pin and use a jig saw or rotary burr in a grinder to cut through to the liner. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YankeeTR5 Posted March 1, 2012 Report Share Posted March 1, 2012 You can try the spanner, but there is a huge torque multiplier effect thru the tranny to the engine. In essence you're using the weight of the car itself to break the piston free. Much easier than applying even half the force by hand & a mighty long breaker bar!! In my mind it's well worth the effort to lower the car and rock it. Bet it pops free on the first wiggle given two of the pistons are already out. Curious to see how this turns out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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