Brakes won't bleed, help!

[Steves_TR6]

Help

 

Picked up my newTR6 on Friday, hurrah it's lovely!

 

But there's a problem with the brakes.

 

The brand new master cylinder fitted by the previous owner allowed bubbles back up into the primary, ie front, reservoir.

 

No fluid leaks out.

 

Despite many tried we were unable to bleed thus out.

 

Bought new master cyl yesterday at the tr shop, the previous one was from rimmers, installed it this morning and it's doing the same. Both came complete with ready mounted reservoirs.

 

Help!!

 

I am thinking that air is being drawn in past the reservoir to master cyl seal?

Or perhaps past the pushrod seal?

 

I heard something about faulty mcs on here somewhere, could I have 2 faulty ones ??

 

Steve

[Guest ntc]

Help

 

Picked up my newTR6 on Friday, hurrah it's lovely!

 

But there's a problem with the brakes.

 

The brand new master cylinder fitted by the previous owner allowed bubbles back up into the primary, ie front, reservoir.

 

No fluid leaks out.

 

Despite many tried we were unable to bleed thus out.

 

Bought new master cyl yesterday at the tr shop, the previous one was from rimmers, installed it this morning and it's doing the same. Both came complete with ready mounted reservoirs.

 

Help!!

 

I am thinking that air is being drawn in past the reservoir to master cyl seal?

Or perhaps past the pushrod seal?

 

I heard something about faulty mcs on here somewhere, could I have 2 faulty ones ??

 

Steve

 

 

Steve

Bit of an old wives tale that the main problem with the replacements is the cap leaking 1.check the pushrod lenth and clearance to the servo.2.how are you bleeding the brakes?

Edited January 23, 2011 by ntc

[Steves_TR6]

Thanks for the reply Nick

 

I don't have the original mc to compare, just two new ones.

 

As for bleeding technique, I'm using a one way valve bleeding tool at the nipple end and slowly pumping the brakes.

 

Better techniques welcome!

 

Steve

[john.r.davies]

Steve,

Have you SEEN bubbles appear in the master cylinder?

Seems most unlikley to me that two new masters should have the same fault, so if there is air getting in, it's coming from further down.

If the bubble(s) are appearing regularly at the master, then the air is persistently getting in (yes, I know that's obvious), but what I mean is that once a bubble is in the master, it it expelled from the system as it rises to the top.

The delay after you let the brake pedal rise before the bubble(s) appear may give you a clue to how far down the leak is.

 

The other possible problem is your 'one-way' valve. They deteriorate with time, esp. the ball-bearing-in-a-tight-piece-of-rubber-tubing type. If the rubber has stiffened, ir got lax, then it may not valve either way. Dont slack off the bleed screw more than you must.

 

If you haven't seen bubbles, but it still feels squishy, the you aren't flushing some air out. Furthest from the master first? I think, right rear, left rear, right front, left front is the order.

 

JOhn

[Lee Sellars]

Hello Steve

 

Two people are better than one in doing Clutch and brake bleeding. Dispite the one way valve.

 

Lee

 

Ps lets have some pics of your new baby

[foster461]

Thanks for the reply Nick

 

I don't have the original mc to compare, just two new ones.

 

As for bleeding technique, I'm using a one way valve bleeding tool at the nipple end and slowly pumping the brakes.

 

Better techniques welcome!

 

Steve

 

 

Steve, the problem with the one way valves is that by the time you have backed them off to allow fluid to get into the valve the valve is now loose in the thread of the caliper and you cant get a good seal there. If the valve is not too sloppy in the caliper you can use rubber grease to try and make it seal better but I always seem to end up doing the two person bleed (thank you sweetie) even with the one way valves.

 

Stan

[Guest ntc]

Thanks for the reply Nick

 

I don't have the original mc to compare, just two new ones.

 

As for bleeding technique, I'm using a one way valve bleeding tool at the nipple end and slowly pumping the brakes.

 

Better techniques welcome!

 

Steve

 

 

Semmone a search on the forum will tell you all

[Steves_TR6]

Ok, firstly yes I have seen the bubbles!

 

Sometime one largeish, sometimes a few smaller ones.

They appear instantly upon release of the pedal.

 

Secondly the 'one way valve ' comprises of a tight fitting rubber tube to go on the nipple, a clear tube and the valve itself at the end in a plastic bottle. I've used it recently to bleed the clutch and braked on my motorbike, was fine.

 

We spent ages bleeding the brakes on Friday, and the rac gad a good try too! The result us allways the same, bubbles in the mc and no front brakes.

 

So I don't think more bleeding is the answer.

 

???

Edited January 23, 2011 by SDerbyshire

[Wilfried]

Ok, firstly yes I have seen the bubbles!

 

Sometime one largeish, sometimes a few smaller ones.

They appear instantly upon release of the pedal.

 

Secondly the 'one way valve ' comprises of a tight fitting rubber tube to go on the nipple, a clear tube and the valve itself at the end in a plastic bottle. I've used it recently to bleed the clutch and braked on my motorbike, was fine.

 

We spent ages bleeding the brakes on Friday, and the rac gad a good try too! The result us allways the same, bubbles in the mc and no front brakes.

 

So I don't think more bleeding is the answer.

 

???

 

 

What happens if all bleed nipples are closed and you press the pedal? Does it go completely down? If you pump like that several times, do you see bubbles. If the pedal goes hard, even near the bottom, you pressurize the system for some minutes: can you then see or feel with your finger any leak at the brake pipes connection to the mc? I have the feeling that you have a tiny leak at the pipes which you connected to the first new mc, and then to the second new mc.

Wilfried

[john.r.davies]

I have the feeling that you have a tiny leak at the pipes which you connected to the first new mc, and then to the second new mc.

Wilfried

 

 

And so do I!

When dealing with a new problem, it's often the last thing you did.

Which was putting a new master on (once? twice?)

That the bubble appears "instantly" says that the leak is in or at the master cylinder.

"IN" seems unlikely for a new master, so the connector to it?

 

New length of brake tube, master to first divider?

 

John

Edited January 23, 2011 by john.r.davies

[Yorkkie]

on a different tack...... have you been bleeding on one corner only and are you getting fluid into recepticle? I had a flexible hose that collapsed in the middle and made a valve. It took me ages to suss it. The bubbles coming back into the main reservoir are just recycling (so to say)

 

Andy

[angelfj]

Help

 

Picked up my newTR6 on Friday, hurrah it's lovely!

 

But there's a problem with the brakes.

 

The brand new master cylinder fitted by the previous owner allowed bubbles back up into the primary, ie front, reservoir.

 

No fluid leaks out.

 

Despite many tried we were unable to bleed thus out.

 

Bought new master cyl yesterday at the tr shop, the previous one was from rimmers, installed it this morning and it's doing the same. Both came complete with ready mounted reservoirs.

 

Help!!

 

I am thinking that air is being drawn in past the reservoir to master cyl seal?

Or perhaps past the pushrod seal?

 

I heard something about faulty mcs on here somewhere, could I have 2 faulty ones ??

 

Steve

 

 

 

Hello Steve. Yes, you may have a faulty M/C Take a look at my post here:My Post

 

Even though your M/C is is a totally different design, you can take it apart and compare it to the photos in the service manual, e.g. Bentley's or whatever you are using for reference. If you do not own a service manual, you will eventually need one.

 

This article may help: Buckeye Triumph Brake Article.

[Steves_TR6]

Thanks Everyone !

 

I think : Wilfried is probably right with his comment "I have the feeling that you have a tiny leak at the pipes which you connected to the first new mc, and then to the second new mc"

 

And being as the copper brake pipes were poorly fitted by a PO ( they're ok but all bendy and unprofessional) I have just ordered a set of bespoke Aeroquip lines from Racetorations.

 

These will go from the MC, round the engine bay and down to the junctions near the passenger footwell, they'll look great AND replace the dodgy looking fittings on the MC that are suspect.

 

I ordered a clutch one as well, to replace the original complete with press on plastic hose that's there right now

 

I am hoping to have these for the weekend........

 

I shall let you all know how it goes :-)

 

Steve

 

PS, I've joined the Register properly now, didn't want to do it before buying a car as thought this might bring bad luck in my search ;-)

[Steves_TR6]

Bleeding Update!

 

Fitted the aeroquip lines, not from Racetorations in the end as they were unresponsive ( I tried 5 times!).

 

They look graeat!

 

Obviously there is a lot of air in the system, and after much bleeding I'm still getting lots of little air bubbles out of the nipples.

 

Any tips on how to get the bleeding done and all the air out ??

 

Regds

 

Steve

Edited January 28, 2011 by SDerbyshire

[88V8]

The brand new master cylinder fitted by the previous owner allowed bubbles back up into the primary, ie front, reservoir.

 

 

We spent ages bleeding the brakes on Friday, and the rac had a good try too! The result us allways the same, bubbles in the mc and no front brakes.

 

The front reservoir, the little one, feeds the rear brakes.

Don't allow it to empty, it is not replenished from the main reservoir, one has to top it up separately and it soon empties.

 

Ivor

[steve_d]

Sorry to hear of your troubles.

 

My little pennies worth. I have never been success bleeding the brakes by slowly pressing the pedal. I usually have my dad floor it 3-4 times from a full reservoir quickly. I also close the bleed nipple when the pedal is at the bottom of its travel each time. Starting from the furthest bleed nipple away from the MC and working closer. IMHO by pumping slowly the brake fluid is unable to displace the air.

 

Hope you get it sorted.

Steve

Edited January 28, 2011 by steve_d

[Wilfried]

Sorry to hear of your troubles.

 

My little pennies worth. I have never been success bleeding the brakes by slowly pressing the pedal. I usually have my dad floor it 3-4 times from a full reservoir quickly. I also close the bleed nipple when the pedal is at the bottom of its travel each time. Starting from the furthest bleed nipple away from the MC and working closer. IMHO by pumping slowly the brake fluid is unable to displace the air.

 

Hope you get it sorted.

Steve

 

 

I do exacly the same, except that it's my wife and not my father who presses the pedal upon my commands!

This procedure worked on dozens of car, every time with no exception!

It must work in your case too!

Wilfried

[RogerH]

.....about the same process for me.

Top up reservoir.

Open bleed valve.

Press hard/Rapid.

Close valve

Raise pedal slowly.

Check reservoir.

 

Repeat until knackered or successful.

 

I always thought you started at the nearest brake unit first as doing the furthest first it would draw air in from the unbled pipes on the way through.

 

Roger

[88V8]

and... are you working from the BB or Haynes? I hope you have both, as each has its merits.

In Haynes, it shows how to set up the endfloat between the servo and the master cylinder. You might check that this is correct, as many people don't know it needs adjusting (I didn't...) and it could easily have been messed up when the last servo was fitted. If not correct, the m/c may not recuperate properly.

 

I found it hard to get a good bleed when fitting a new m/c. In the end I succeeded either with a pressure bleeder (Eezibleed) or by loosening the connectors to the master so that the master bled out before retightening the pipes. Both this and the pressure method are potentially messy.

 

All the books I've read, on this and all other cars, tell you to start with the nipple furthest away. I never tried nearest first. Maybe it doesn't matter.

 

Once the system is bled, it's easy to rebleed for the annual fluid change. One-way valve, slow presses, whatever.

 

Ivor

[jemgee]

Try jacking up each wheel in turn and hopefully air bubbles will float up the pipe to the bleed nipple rather than exiting into master cylinder?

[Steves_TR6]

The Saga continues !

 

I have now put about 5 litres of fluid through the system and still cannot get the brakes to work properly.

 

I took the car to a garage yesterday but their system was based on a pressure cap and none were big enough for the TR6

 

I've read all of the above, and am convinced that bleeding using the brake pedal is just not going to do the job.

 

I reckon that reverse pressure bleeding would work, ie feeding fluid into the nipples?

 

My theory is that the long drop of brake pipe down through the engine bay is too much for the MC to 'push' air down, whereas if the flow was going the other way then the air would want to go with the flow ??

 

Now the problem with this would normally be the fluid overlowing the MC, but with my Braided Brake lines I can get the MC a foot outside of the car whilst still connected !!

 

What do you think ?

 

Also, the Servo push rod gap on my car is way more than 0.01, more like 0.1 !

 

Ive read the Haynes on this, but i dont seem to have two nuts on the end of the pushrod, just the domed headed one??

 

Perhaps a PO has refitted incorrectly ??

 

Obviously the grater clearance will equate to less MC piston movement, which cant help !

 

Its sunny today, and i should be out in the car not pi$$ing about with the brakes

 

Steve

Edited January 30, 2011 by SDerbyshire

[roy53]

Bleeding Update!

 

Fitted the aeroquip lines, not from Racetorations in the end as they were unresponsive ( I tried 5 times!).

 

They look graeat!

 

Obviously there is a lot of air in the system, and after much bleeding I'm still getting lots of little air bubbles out of the nipples.

 

Any tips on how to get the bleeding done and all the air out ??

 

Regds

 

Steve

 

Steve are you saying that the whole brake lines are braded?

one of the race cars had fitted fully braded pipes (VERY PRETTY) and spent most of the season bleeding his brakes after every practice,every race but still complained of a soft pedal after a year he went back to solid pipes as per standard cars .Problem solved. I was not involved in this apart from sometime pedal pushing but it worked on this ocasion.

ROY

[Peter Douglas Winn]

I also have probems with brake bleeding. I have a professional one man device. I still cannot get the brakes tight. What I did, was to get hold of a second person. Afterwards I used a piece of wood to hold the pedal down over night to get rid of the bubbles (old motorbike trick). It seemed to work but then they went soft again. After several times with the wood the brakes were ok.

[88V8]

I took the car to a garage yesterday but their system was based on a pressure cap and none were big enough for the TR6

 

I reckon that reverse pressure bleeding would work, ie feeding fluid into the nipples? My theory is that the long drop of brake pipe down through the engine bay is too much for the MC to 'push' air down, whereas if the flow was going the other way then the air would want to go with the flow ??

 

Also, the Servo push rod gap on my car is way more than 0.01, more like 0.1 !

 

I've read the Haynes on this, but i dont seem to have two nuts on the end of the pushrod, just the domed headed one??

Perhaps a PO has refitted incorrectly ??

 

Do feel for you, not fun when a simple job becomes so intractable.

 

The Eezibleed is based on a cap, there isn't one for the TR6. One has to take the standard cap apart (detach the outer cap from the inner), drill the outer and fit the brass nipply thing to it with a rubber washer. After use, take it apart again and fit a rubber bung.

Trouble with the Eezibleed is regulating the air. I use a 1 bar air pump and an air bleed valve so it's easy to control, but it's still hard to avoid making a mess.

 

There's also the Mityvac, which I bought and have yet to use, that sucks the fluid from the nipple.

http://www.mityvac.c...oducts_bcbe.asp

I think I have the MV8020, hand operated. Bought on ebay.

 

You should be able to bleed the system conventionally with a one-way valve. Bleeding from the nipple, how are you going to apply pressure without the fluid pissing out of the threads?

 

Yes, the 0.1 clearance won't help. Too little pedal movement, too much travel, pedal near the floor I would think. Take the dome nut off and find a lock nut in your rummage box, sorry don't know the thread.

 

?? Have you tried loosening the outlet pipes from the m/c and bleedng it until the fluid drips out? If you can't even get that far, no point trying to bleed the rest of it.

 

As a final thought, these Speedbleeders have been recommended in the past, I keep meaning to buy a set.

http://www.speedbleeder.com/

Available here

http://www.demon-twe...eeder/1711/3680

 

GL

 

Ivor

[Steves_TR6]

Thanks for the comments guys.

 

Right now i am completely sick of this !

 

So have given up for the weekend as have other jobs to attend to.

 

I have braided hoses from the mc to the junctions at the bottom of the engine bay.

 

Presently i think the problem is the air bubbles being reluctant to go down the big drop in the engine bay, or somewhere else.

 

I think that pumping fluid up from the calipers might cure this, so am going to investigate this further. My idea is to remove the nipples and replace with a bespoke pipe fitting to allow pumping of fluid right back through the system. then replace the nipples and rebleed the bit of air that gets back in to the calipers, this should be easy ?

 

Watch this space for an update in the week !