99oilers09 Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 Hi there im sure this subject has been talked about many times before but i haven't seen it. My questions are this.. Now that i am looking seriously at buying a TR6, im curious, How much difference is there between the 125 models vs the 150, in real world driving. By which i mean not in terms of 0-60 times. I have read elsewhere that the 150 models were only ever about 142. I have also read that 125 cars may have less power but n terms of reliability and smoothness the 125's were better cars than the 150, Although the 150 is the more desirable car. I would be interested in what peoples opinions were this subject. Excluding the road tax issue that you would pay on 125 cars. in terms of the cars themselves what is better or worse? 99oilers09 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PILKIE Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 In real world basic day to day driving there isnt any real noticeable difference IMHO between the 2. When I was looking for a car,the criteria I had was the best I could find for the money I had to spend. Basically I was looking for the most solid car I could find,as the mechanicals are relatively easy to sort out. An older 80's/90's proper resto with few dry miles since needing some tlc would be nice. Didnt mind 150 or 125bhp,prefered a pi to carb,o/d was a must,would like tax exempt if poss. I test drove 3 or 4 of various types at dealers to get a feel for what they were like,and to have a poke about before I set out to buy one. I did prefer the pi to the carb to drive,seemed a smoother power delivery,but I was brought up on SU carbs. Whatever your budget,add an extra 2-3 grand on top for the unexpected jobs you may find. Be prepared to do a lot of work yourself if you can otherwise you will need deep pockets for specialists. Good luck in your hunt,and take a mate who knows TR's or classic cars with you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew Smith Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 In the ‘real world’ not a lot to tell them apart, other than the 125 (CR) have a bit more torque and the 150 (CP) has a bit more urgency when pushing on through the gears, particularly with o/d on 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears with the A Type fitted to the CP cars. My experience when looking for my third TR6 (Aug - Sep 10) was that a price divide exists between comparable conditioned CR and CP cars of about £1,500 - £2k in favour of the CP, and it may well only widen. Cheers, and good luck. Andrew Quote Link to post Share on other sites
OldBob Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Hi 99oilers09, Since your post suggests you are not concerned about the 0-60 times or Road tax differences, but are instead querying the 'real world driving characteristics', that would suggest a CR car at the lower comparable price may suit you. ( Incidentally, some CR 125 cars were, I believe, just manufactured in time to qualify for tax exempt status. Do remember though, a stroke of a Whithall pen could remove that status and with present gov. cuts who really knows what the future holds for that benefit?). During a recent conversation with TRGB (a well respected TR specialist known by all) the price differential from CR to equivalent CP condition car, was in their opinion, more like £1k at around the £8k / £9k price band (the CR being the cheaper). Pro-rata for other price bands. Hardly worth choosing the wrong car for - much better to get the best car that your hard earned can buy - as suggested by PILKIE. Tiny appearance differences existed between the CR & CP cars, whether that bother you I don't know but small'ish things like: grille, front spoiler, wipers & mirrors in either chrome or black finish - all of these features are relatively minor changes though should you find a good car that doesn't quite match your chosen 'look'. Your other point regarding 'reliability' differences betwen CR/CP cars is I feel rather impossible to properly answer since all cars are now at least 35 years old and thats an awful lot of years to have either been abused, as opposed to a car thats been properly looked after & serviced. If you are unable to attend to repairs / service work yourself then look for a car with a good service/repair history - but remember they all have potential for a few skeletons which you may need to deal with. Just reading the technical problems & responses on this forum is a great way to learn. The measurement of the engine power was certainly 'rounded off' and the 142BHP figure is often used for CP cars, as is 124BHP for the CR cars - very easy to remember as its just a swap of the last two numbers. I think by the time the CR cars were leaving the factory, the measurements were done to DIN standards, previously there was some 'marketing licence' coming into play. Best to keep an open mind and when you find something you like the look & condition of, have a drive of it, only then will you know. Happy test driving !! Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Goldthorpe Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 I'd not worry about the 125/150 thing. Buy the mostest car you can afford (doesn't matter what model it is, repairs cost the same). I had a CR for years. It was fast enough, reliable enough (once it was sorted and used regularly) and fun. You can tweak them for more oomph now and I dare say as many CR cars are now probably producing as much power as the best CP cars. Don't worry about that aspect of the TR6 - get the best you can afford and enjoy it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cp25616 Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Well having owned 4 TR6's and 1 TR5 in my 28 years experience of driving 6 cylinder TR's I have to disagree from the general concensus printed above. I have owned 2 CR TR6's and 2 CP TR6's so should be able to give a valid and experienced opinion on your subject topic. I can honestly say that there IS a huge difference between the two and much more than the DIN BHP figures suggest (CP 142 and CR 125. The earlier cars were so much more free breathing than the later cars with frankly the later cars being asthmatic in comparison. The later cars were breathless throughout the rev range whereas the earlier cars positively sparkled. The later cars had the saloon camshaft with tame timing and dissy programmed to match also restrictive breathing on the head and inlet manifolds (just take off an inlet mani on a later car to see what I mean). This was done for two reasons namely to counteract supposed customer criticism of lumpy idleing and also to comply with ever tightening emission regulations. Frankly BL robbed a performance car of most of its immediateness and sheer urge. Now to move onto the overdrive issue which was changed at much the same time (CP cars had A-type O/D and most CR cars had the J- type O/D). If you get the chance to drive both later and earlier cars you again will notice a huge difference. The A-type is so much more responsive (some might call its actions aggressive) compared to the sluggish J-type which frankly was a step backwards with regard to enjoyment anyway. I wont go down the issue of overdrive on 2nd gear as unless you want to break the diff mountings is only adviseable to use at lower revs, say in traffic jams etc etc. Its also quite depressing to read just about every magazine article that features a TR6 to find that it always seems to be a later car and the article is based on the testers findings thus slightly disappointing. Please put yourself in the position of being able to drive both as you WILL find a big difference. The chrome look finish on the later corporate style instruments was also disappointing although moving the dip switch to the column was a step in the right direction. Just my opinions from 28 years of TR 6 cylinder driving. Alan Graham Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew Smith Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Alan, Well said, maybe I was being too subtle (most unlike me) and economic with my words..... I have also owned two CRs, so also feel ‘qualified’ to comment - VUX is my first CP, and from memory the difference is exactly as you describe. Cheers Andrew Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CONCRETE24 Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Well none of you are helping with my non eventful TR Sale! I guess I had better drop the price to lowly CR levels!? http://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=26046 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cp25616 Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Thats because there are too many TR6's for sale out there and prospective buyers are spoilt for choice and probably have sidelined a "feel good" purchase due to this country's financial straights. Keep dropping the price and the right buyer will come along. Good luck Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robnob Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 I'd agree with most of that too - I'm on my second CP150BHP and while my CR125 was still great fun to own and drive, I always hankered after the better responsive drive of the 150 car. always prefered the black rim on the dials to the chromed edgers... Good point about the overdrive on the CP cars on 2nd 3rd and 4th, which was always much more flexible with the 150 cars than the 125 - an extra gear - so it has to be better, surely??? In essence the detuning to 125 was all about the softening of emissions and noise for the American Market, so it would naturally have to point to a downrated performance. It's fair to say the price band differentials in today's market are definitely apparent, stating 150s are better sought after, but there's a lot more to take into account with the condition, history and other items of a given car that determine the sale price. One big plus is the tax exempt on most older cars and always a good selling point. It'll be interesting to see what happens to prices in the more active sales markets in the spring - I happened to notice a green TR6 for sale on one of the classifieds the other day at £24,000!!! As always, get the best car you can find for the cash you have available to spend, with some in reserve for the rainy day fund. Let us know what you decided upon when you get one!! Happy hunting!! Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Goldthorpe Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 I also agree that there is a difference - not that I have experienced it but I have read a lot about it. Just that, after so many decades, how many CR cars have been left unmodified? Nobody likes to have the "slow" car ;-) There is also a veritable industry devoted to uprating TRs - so if the price differential is high enough, the money you save on buying the "inferior" product can be utilised in making it the car is should always have been. Sometimes it doesn't take too much - amazing what Prestige's overhead throttle linkage can do for acceleration when coupled to a freer flowing manifold... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
robnob Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 I also agree that there is a difference - not that I have experienced it but I have read a lot about it. Just that, after so many decades, how many CR cars have been left unmodified? Nobody likes to have the "slow" car ;-) There is also a veritable industry devoted to uprating TRs - so if the price differential is high enough, the money you save on buying the "inferior" product can be utilised in making it the car is should always have been. Sometimes it doesn't take too much - amazing what Prestige's overhead throttle linkage can do for acceleration when coupled to a freer flowing manifold... Good point Mike - and with everything else with our cars and life in general it's all highly subjective- what do you want from your car, originality, performance, or simply stamping your "own mark on your marque"! So long as you enjoy your car that's what it's intended for, with me everytime. Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 A relevant point that hasn't been mentioned as yet - a significant proportion of power losses between the flywheel and rear wheels are effectively fixed and/or speed related. A 20% increase in the flywheel figure tends to be a rather greater percentage at the driven wheels . . . . At least some of the TR5 and early TR6 production CP engines might have topped 140bhp by real measurement, but they were the exception not the rule. 130-135 would have been nearer the mark, 120 for a decent CR engine, and perhaps just nudging over the ton for the carb CC engines. Translate that into rear wheel horsepower and if you're lucky around 85 for the CC, a 100-105 for the CR, and 115-120 or even a tad more for the CP lump on song. Bear in mind also that the overdrive unit consumes power en route to the wheels, one horse per 1000 revs probably, or 5 horses off the top end. In period, overdrive was a more common fitment to the CR than to the CP series cars. Bottom line, on average a 4-speed CP offers a potential 20 horse or 20% increment over the 6-speed CR, maybe a little more - sufficient to make quite a potential difference in performance on the road . . . . In comparison, the less said about US-spec engines the better. In modern useage, the difference is largely academic - it's not that often I see a PI car being well ragged, and in touring useage there's not that much to choose between a CP and a CR PI. Quite why so many folks choose to pay a hefty premium for the earlier 6 beats me, too many of them don't exploit what they've paid for, and might as well have bought a Spitfire or an MGB and saved themselves an awful lot of dosh. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew Smith Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) . . . . At least some of the TR5 and early TR6 production CP engines might have topped 140bhp by real measurement, but they were the exception not the rule. 130-135 would have been nearer the mark, 120 for a decent CR engine, and perhaps just nudging over the ton for the carb CC engines. Translate that into rear wheel horsepower and if you're lucky around 85 for the CC, a 100-105 for the CR, and 115-120 or even a tad more for the CP lump on song......... That'll be right Alec, Paul Walker VUX's PO had a Dyno test done a little while back and topped out at 121.3 bhp @ 4,873rpm on a standard CP engine with a gas flowed head: Cheers Andrew Edited January 11, 2011 by Andrew Smith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cp25616 Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 Yes that seems to be about right but add another 25 approx. bhp back on for what should be engine rated (DIN) bhp and you have your 150 or pretty near figure. Now put the shoe on the other foot and go compare that figure to a standard CR TR6 (maybe with an uprated head) and your bhp figure will be correspondingly lower say 90-95 hp at the wheels and about 115 at the flywheel. Nothing to write home about then. I know these figures are pretty standard as I have seen owners of CR cars almost in tears after a rolling road session trying to come to grips with "hot Spitfire figures" !!! Trust me on this chaps the differece IS sizeable and the 2 cars drive and react differently. Go try for yourself. I always found the Cp TR6 able to cruise comfortably at 90 on the motorway all day long and not at 60 keeping up with some MGB's......yes I have seen this many times. Just because you have a classic doesn't mean you have to crawl you know ! Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Goldthorpe Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 Yes that seems to be about right but add another 25 approx. bhp back on for what should be engine rated (DIN) bhp and you have your 150 or pretty near figure. Now put the shoe on the other foot and go compare that figure to a standard CR TR6 (maybe with an uprated head) and your bhp figure will be correspondingly lower say 90-95 hp at the wheels and about 115 at the flywheel. Nothing to write home about then. I know these figures are pretty standard as I have seen owners of CR cars almost in tears after a rolling road session trying to come to grips with "hot Spitfire figures" !!! Trust me on this chaps the differece IS sizeable and the 2 cars drive and react differently. Go try for yourself. I always found the Cp TR6 able to cruise comfortably at 90 on the motorway all day long and not at 60 keeping up with some MGB's......yes I have seen this many times. Just because you have a classic doesn't mean you have to crawl you know ! Alan I trust these tearful souls then went and fixed the power differential to stay ahead of the hot Spitfires ;-) I still maintain that using the power figures is a red herring when looking for a TR6. Condition and age are more important. Condition because you don't want to spend a lot of money fixing parts and repairing bodges. Age because, in the UK at least, of road tax (not applicable here - my TR6 was registered as a 2001 car because that was when it was imported...meaning it had to basically be up to 2001 spec with regards to government regulations). Doesn't matter if the car can barely keep up with a Nissan Micra on the motorways (my CR did 80-90 all day too - not comfortable for the driver but the car seemed to enjoy it. More comfortable, quieter, relaxed, etc to do 90 all day in the Ford Ka I had....maybe I was just old before my time ;-)) because the potential is there to get the power you want. However, if you're having to put money aside to repair the injection system, the suspension, the chassis, the body (been there, done that!) you'll have no time and definitely no money to spend on upgrades....in fact you'll probably not be driving the car at all, regardless of whether it is a CP or a CR. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Goldthorpe Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 More on this subject here http://www.club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/forum10/Blah.pl?m-1252350863/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Moltu Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Nothing a cam swap wouldn't change! Buy the car with the best body/chassis. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
alan57 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 In my TR6 stable I have a race TR6, tuned to within an inch of its life! Whether it is CR or CP does not matter - it just shows you can obtain outrageous performance if you are prepared to pay for it!! More to the point however I have an unrestored original CR, mechanically completely standard, and an unrestored original CP, mechanically completely standard, both well looked after and in good original mechanical condition. There certainly IS a difference - the CR car issmoother and generally more civilised to drive, whereas the CP car does everythingin a rather more brutal style. Outright speed and acceleration at most is only slightly different, and in everyday conditions, whether in energetic driving, tootling around, high speed cruising, or overtaking, the discernable difference is negligible. I love 'em both and find all the concern about numbers, and the "mine is bigger than yours" debate a little bizarre!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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