Steering Question

[bullstreetboy]

My 3A is suffering from VERY heavy steering and I have now removed the steering box and all links etc. Everything seemes OK except for the setscrew adjustment that was a little bit tight. With all this out I've take the opportunity to replace the 2 races and ball and cage assemblies.

I've also go 2 new "silent bloc and pin" for the centre tie rod. My question is why aren't these 2 joints "swivels"? Surely they have to "swivel"as the steering is turned. How can they when they are bonded? Surely, if they don't swivel then this will cause heavy steering.

 

Total confused!

[TomMull]

My 3A is suffering from VERY heavy steering and I have now removed the steering box and all links etc. Everything seemes OK except for the setscrew adjustment that was a little bit tight. With all this out I've take the opportunity to replace the 2 races and ball and cage assemblies.

I've also go 2 new "silent bloc and pin" for the centre tie rod. My question is why aren't these 2 joints "swivels"? Surely they have to "swivel"as the steering is turned. How can they when they are bonded? Surely, if they don't swivel then this will cause heavy steering.

 

Total confused!

 

 

The steering arm (Pitman) and the idler arm each move in identical fixed arcs. Therefore the center link (tie rod) moves in a single plane, stop to stop, and needs no swivel. Tom

[bullstreetboy]

The steering arm (Pitman) and the idler arm each move in identical fixed arcs. Therefore the center link (tie rod) moves in a single plane, stop to stop, and needs no swivel. Tom

 

 

Tom - thanks for that - still confused, but it "should" become clear as I re-build it. This car was stripped in 1984 for a re-spray, which was done, and all new leather trim. BUT not put back together!!!. So I've been though the breaks/free'd the clutch/ re-fitted the trim, etc etc and the car now runs. Just get the steering sorted, MOT, and back on the road for the first time in 26 years!

[TomMull]

I'm sure it will and if you are anything like me, this will be but one of many mysteries. Usually, someone on this forum can solve just about any of them. Good luck with the project. Tom

[Norman D]

Sorry to disagree TomMull but the inner does rotate about 30 degrees each way with respect to the outer on these Silentblock bushes, putting the rubber under shear untill eventually it fails. When replacing make sure the wheels point straight ahead before tightening the taper or early failure is assured! Both Moss and Revington sell metal alternatives to these rubber bushes--- at a price.

[TomMull]

Sorry to disagree TomMull but the inner does rotate about 30 degrees each way with respect to the outer on these Silentblock bushes, putting the rubber under shear untill eventually it fails. When replacing make sure the wheels point straight ahead before tightening the taper or early failure is assured! Both Moss and Revington sell metal alternatives to these rubber bushes--- at a price.

 

Norman, We must be separated by a common language. Tom

[Alec Pringle]

Separated by a common language is probably about right !

 

Swivel implies simple rotation, movement in one plane only - which is what is involved here. The silentbloc bush presumably is intended to reduce the amount of feedback and/or potential kickback shock to the steering wheel, but it also introduces a degree of friction and 'weight'. Substituting a bronze or nylon component should result in a more direct and 'lighter' response, but at the expense of a livelier wheel. General opinion seems to me to suggest that nylon is a potential improvement for road use, bronze being restricted to circuit useage - but I don't think that's a unanimous verdict.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[Ashley James]

Nearly all the cars that I've owned and or worked on that were originally fitted with cross ply tyres have some sort of shock absorption in the steering, because of the kick back, which they suffer from. Radial ply tyres don't need it and getting rid of it gives more direct and accurate steering.

 

Ash

[stuart]

Separated by a common language is probably about right !

 

Swivel implies simple rotation, movement in one plane only - which is what is involved here. The silentbloc bush presumably is intended to reduce the amount of feedback and/or potential kickback shock to the steering wheel, but it also introduces a degree of friction and 'weight'. Substituting a bronze or nylon component should result in a more direct and 'lighter' response, but at the expense of a livelier wheel. General opinion seems to me to suggest that nylon is a potential improvement for road use, bronze being restricted to circuit useage - but I don't think that's a unanimous verdict.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

 

The Nylatron version is a much better bet. The bronze version is too "solid" for my liking.

Stuart.

[bullstreetboy]

The steering box is now rebuilt with new bearings. The "silent block and pin"'s have been replaced(Moss). Everything is adjusted as per Robert Bentley "The Complete Official Triumph TR2 & TR3 1953-1961". The work has been checked by a professional Garage Owner(he has also checked every movable joint).

 

With the car jacked up it feels worse than when I started. I still don't understand how these bonded pins are expected to work. Going from lock to lock it seems to me that they would need to swivel. However many TR2's/3's produced prove me wrong.

 

The "Professional"(he doesn't understand the pins either) suggested that I drop it onto it's wheels and try it, but after all the hassle and disapoinment of today I could not face it. Maybe tomorrow. >£100 spent and no fix!

 

I think I can feel a Moss Rack and Pinion Conversion coming!

Edited September 4, 2010 by bullstreetboy

[Guest ntc]

The steering box is now rebuilt with new bearings. The "silent block and pin"'s have been replaced(Moss). Everything is adjusted as per Robert Bentley "The Complete Official Triumph TR2 & TR3 1953-1961". The work has been checked by a professional Garage Owner(he has also checked every movable joint).

 

With the car jacked up it feels worse than when I started. I still don't understand how these bonded pins are expected to work. Going from lock to lock it seems to me that they would need to swivel. However many TR2's/3's produced prove me wrong.

 

The "Professional"(he doesn't understand the pins either) suggested that I drop it onto it's wheels and try it, but after all the hassle and disapoinment of today I could not face it. Maybe tomorrow. >£100 spent and no fix!

 

I think I can feel a Moss Rack and Pinion Conversion coming!

 

 

The car needs to be on it's wheels

[Alec Pringle]

Neil is right, sidescreen steering feels more than heavy with the wheels on full droop, disconcertingly so, and in any case it will all lighten up after some brisk useage on the road. A change to nylatron replacements for the rubber bush would lighten it further.

 

Rack and pinion is a lot of effort and expense, and after all that the steering is still **** - and it isn't light either. A set of weights and some regular exercise to build up the arms and shoulders would be much better value for a fraction of the price - and no, that isn't intended as a sarcasm !

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[Guest ntc]

And the Moss one's the ball's are not big enough

[Don Elliott]

Some 15 years ago I removed the original upper ball joints from my 1958 TR3A above the trunnions and installed new ones. There are some serrations (somewhat like splines) in the upper securing hole of the new ball joints and if they are not exactly as the ones you remove (as in my case), the serrations or splines are not lined up as best they can be - and this can cause a resistance to turning. I re-loosened the big hex nut and rotated the ball joint bodies around these serrations (one tooth at a time) until the trunnion turned easier - or at least as before starting this project. In this case the wheel was off and the TR was up safely on jack stands.

 

Another thing to check is whether the trunnion is truly aligned on the straight axis. If the upper end of the trunnion casting is bent or bowed by an incedent with a kerb, this lack of straightness can cause "heavy" steering.

[bullstreetboy]

Guys

 

Thanks for all the feedback. After re-building it all I jacked up the wishbones until the car lifted off the stands, so all the front suspension/steering was in the normal possition. As previously reported the feel was heavier than before the rebuild - presumably because of those 2 new pins. The trunion joints are all OK, as are all the other joints. The previous owner kept it all well greased.

 

I need to check it on the road but here in Devon it's a dismal raining Sunday morning and the hood has not been re-fitted yet!

 

I can't find the Nylatron pins for the link arm on the Moss web site.

 

Barry

Edited September 5, 2010 by bullstreetboy

[mike3md]

Barry,

 

Is this what you need?

 

http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=10124

 

Revington do all metal ones:

 

http://www.revingtontr.com/shop/product_display.asp?mscssid=MB4V2XG6DVDN9N89AEJ9HD0F4GBJFFME&CarType=TR3&ProductID=105063UK

 

Mike

Edited September 5, 2010 by mike3md

[stuart]

The Moss ones are preferable for road use.

Stuart.

[bullstreetboy]

Thanks Guys

 

AND gasp at the cost!

 

Approx £100 spent so far and now another £150! I have to ask - do they really do the job? The box, when disconnected, spins on the wheel from lock to lock relitively easily. I noticed, before and after the rebuild, that the stiffness is worse going left to right. The stiffness is not in the trunion bushes - leaving .......link joints. BUT I still haven't tried it as is on the road yet.

 

I last drove a 3A in earnest more than 40 years ago, and even at the age of 10 I "drove" one whilst sitting on my Father lap when he was Chief Test Driver at Standard Triumph during the early TR development, and I don't recall it ever being overly heavy, but 40years of PAS may have taken it's tole!

 

Best

 

Barry

[Ashley James]

Barry

 

I'm sure that's all it is - TIME, because I drive non power steered cars a lot and don't even notice. That said I drove TRs when they weren't that old and never noticed the steering was heavy, but I do now.

 

Ash

[vivdownunder]

Barry, it's amazing how much influence tyres have on steering weight.

 

You need a good depth of tread and a minimum of 26psi in front radial ply tyres.

 

There's nothing wrong with the original "silentbloc" bushes, which help to dampen the steering. Nolatron upgrades can be a bit harsh in feeding jolts through the steering wheel.

 

Regards,

 

Viv.

[Ashley James]

One of the Vintage Tyre Companies will sell you a set of 155 x 15 Pirelli Cinturato and they will make a tremendous difference.

 

Ash

[Lord Flashart]

I got a set of the delrin bushes of ebay for about forty quid. In my opinion they transformed the car and I went from wondering why I had bothered restoring the car to absolutely loving the thing. Even if they were a hundred quid each I'd buy a set!

 

 

Paul

[bullstreetboy]

OK Guys

 

I'm going for the Moss bushes :- http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=10124

 

I couldn't try it on the road as I now have a blocked fuel line - it looks like the tank will have to come out and be cleaned! Yet another step backwards!

 

I'll fix the tank contamination problem - try it with the the steering as it is, then fit the new bushes. That way I'll get a clear indication of any improvement.

 

I'll let you know.

 

Best

 

Barry

[stuart]

OK Guys

 

I'm going for the Moss bushes :- http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=10124

 

I couldn't try it on the road as I now have a blocked fuel line - it looks like the tank will have to come out and be cleaned! Yet another step backwards!

 

I'll fix the tank contamination problem - try it with the the steering as it is, then fit the new bushes. That way I'll get a clear indication of any improvement.

 

I'll let you know.

 

Best

 

Barry

 

It may well be worth changing the front to back fuel line as well because sediment can hang around in it.

Stuart.

[bullstreetboy]

Guys

 

I've just tried it on the road and now everything is adjusted correcly there is an improvement. At full lock the twist on the bonded rubber bush is very noticable. The Moss replacements should cure this.

 

Best

 

Barry