Nigel 628 Posted June 28, 2010 Report Share Posted June 28, 2010 I'd like to fit a two-speed wiper motor to my TR4 and I've been led to understand the TR6 item is pretty much a straight swap. True or false? If the latter, any other suggestions? Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
david ferry Posted June 28, 2010 Report Share Posted June 28, 2010 Nigel, It is the most sensible route but it is very far from a straight swap of the motor. David Quote Link to post Share on other sites
4Mal Posted June 28, 2010 Report Share Posted June 28, 2010 It's a straight swap with the wheelboxes and everything !! WOuld be best idea for you as a serious rallyist chappie. When you are out in the snow, you'll beglad you changed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 628 Posted June 28, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2010 Thanks for the prompt reply, David. I might have known nothing's that simple. So....what's the job entail? Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 628 Posted June 28, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2010 Oooh...you just beat me to it, Mal! So David says no and you say yes. Any advance on that? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeF Posted June 28, 2010 Report Share Posted June 28, 2010 (edited) I fitted a 6 motor and wheelboxes to my 4. You will need a mounting kit for the motor. The later wheelboxes are far superior to the earlier ones wich carry over from the 3, and who knows where before that! They are a striaght drop in and easier to fit. Getting a pull out two speed switch will be difficult, and you will need to make up some wiring if you go that route. I got bits I needed from Revingtons who can supply a column switch conversion also if that's OK for you. Having said that I recall rallyists on this forum suggesting that an intermittant wipe might be more useful and the name of some kit to do that. [Too late for me at the time] See picture of my installation Mike Edited June 28, 2010 by MikeF Quote Link to post Share on other sites
david ferry Posted June 28, 2010 Report Share Posted June 28, 2010 Nigel, As Mal says, it's a simple (??!!) straight swap of the motor, rack and wheelboxes. The wiring will need tweaking too, as will the motor mounting. Basically, you've got to change everything. Having said all of that, my TR3 has a TR6 motor etc, as does one of my TR4s. The other will follow suit in due course during the build process. David Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 628 Posted June 28, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2010 Ah, gettit! A bit slow there, I was; it's a straight swap but only as a whole assembly! Sorry, guys, must be thick night tonight. So it's not as easy as just swapping the motor, although I had assumed the mounting would be different as the motors are round as opposed to square. I've been given a pair of new TR5 wheelboxes (will they do?) but I need a drive rack too it seems. But I recall a recent post suggesting the wheelboxes are a pig to change so rotating the wheel by 180 degrees presents fresh teeth to the rack; I was hoping I could get away with doing that and just changing the motor! However, Mike's suggestion about the intermittent function is interesting. I remember when you could buy conversion kits for this purpose before such functions were fitted as standard by manufacturers but I doubt if they are still available. The wiring isn't a problem as I've already had to create an auxiliary loom for the rally equipment, and originality isn't too important as it's a rally car so an alternative switch could be used. Actually, the column switch is a good idea, it would be handy to incorporate the dipswitch too. And a single touch/wipe function. MGB column switch, perhaps? Or am I flounting originality too much here..... Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted June 28, 2010 Report Share Posted June 28, 2010 Ah, gettit! A bit slow there, I was; it's a straight swap but only as a whole assembly! Sorry, guys, must be thick night tonight. So it's not as easy as just swapping the motor, although I had assumed the mounting would be different as the motors are round as opposed to square. I've been given a pair of new TR5 wheelboxes (will they do?) but I need a drive rack too it seems. But I recall a recent post suggesting the wheelboxes are a pig to change so rotating the wheel by 180 degrees presents fresh teeth to the rack; I was hoping I could get away with doing that and just changing the motor! However, Mike's suggestion about the intermittent function is interesting. I remember when you could buy conversion kits for this purpose before such functions were fitted as standard by manufacturers but I doubt if they are still available. The wiring isn't a problem as I've already had to create an auxiliary loom for the rally equipment, and originality isn't too important as it's a rally car so an alternative switch could be used. Actually, the column switch is a good idea, it would be handy to incorporate the dipswitch too. And a single touch/wipe function. MGB column switch, perhaps? Or am I flounting originality too much here..... Nigel Switch setup from MK 3 mini has column mounted indicator/dipswitch/horn one side and wiper 2speed/single wipe/washers on the other. Its what I use for rack converted sidescreen cars. Also has standard Lucas wiring colours to make it easy to match up. Stuart Quote Link to post Share on other sites
david ferry Posted June 29, 2010 Report Share Posted June 29, 2010 Stuart, Are you sure it's a MK3 Mini, not a MK4? I thought the MK3 has dash mounted switches for wipers. Could you let me have the switch part numbers? Thanks David Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted June 29, 2010 Report Share Posted June 29, 2010 Stuart, Are you sure it's a MK3 Mini, not a MK4? I thought the MK3 has dash mounted switches for wipers. Could you let me have the switch part numbers? Thanks David David you could be right about it being MK4 as Im not sure of the change point, If I remember rightly they started fitting them to late export MK3s first. As to part numbers I have no idea as I just rescue them from the boys next door who race Minis when they strip them out. I also have the wiper units complete from them as well because they are two speed units and most of the bits can be cannibalised to suit sidescreen cars. The beauty of that switch unit is they are together on a bracket that with the self cancelling centre ring removed will fit over a sidescreen column and clamp up on it. It may need a bit of adaption to fit the 4 column but Im sure it wouldnt be too difficult. A cover would probably need to be fabricated as the original Mini one is too deep because it has the steering lock in it. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brett Posted June 29, 2010 Report Share Posted June 29, 2010 For the intermittent function, Smartscreen produce a thing that really seems interesting (haven't tried it). Easy fit, keep your original switch (the box "records" how long you want the intermittence between the two first wipes you manually switch, and then goes on at the same rythm). Anyone tried it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tr4Tony Posted June 29, 2010 Report Share Posted June 29, 2010 Hi All Its a total system swap thats required here as the wheelboxes on the later TR6 type set up have 22 teeth, the earlier DR3a 21 ... doesnt sound much until your wiper rack gets stripped or the arms start whacking the bulkhead top ..... then you realise. Also, the rack is slightly different because of the teeth issue, the tubes slightly different lengths (although you can bodge this), the bracketry is different (TR6 is weld on also) and lastly the wiring is fundamentally different. Not a quick swap for the extra 'reliability' offered by the later motor. The wiring change is a pig - this is because the two different motors work in a completely diferent ways. Its complicated to explain in a post and it is possible to wire a late motor into a TR4 or TR5 loom, but its messy and its never right which means on a competition car it will probably go wrong. I elected to put a 2 speed DR3a into BST82B and I have to say I think its fine. If I was doing it all again Id buy a Revington TR rally loom which has plugs on the end of most of the component circuits and fit the whole TR6 affair, purely because a replacement motor is £60 not £260 !!! but to my mind the cost of the whole change is just silly unless you are starting from scratch and building the car up. The intermittant wipe mod sounds very useful .... ill report back when ive got one up and running. Regards Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted June 29, 2010 Report Share Posted June 29, 2010 From the way that Smartscreen operates, I'm not sure you could combine it with 2-speed operation. I considered it for 4VC (which has 2-speed wipers, but not the normal option for TRs - I think it is the type fitted to 1960s Jaguars, according to Pete Wigglesworth), but decided that I couldn't make it work. Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 628 Posted June 29, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2010 The price difference was one of the factors I had in mind when looking at the TR6 possibility! But if the number of teeth is wrong and the drive rack doesn't fit the TR6 motor, that knocks it on the head. I looked at a Mini column switch today, as Stuart suggests, and it has a single wipe feature as well as 1/2 speed, which could do the job of intermittant wipe at a pinch. I don't know how old the Mini was but it had square ends and did all the functions. However, WKE has had the self park disabled; it was like that when I got it, sometimes on a rally car if the wipers fail or get damaged it prevents the self park mechanism from trying to self park and burning the motor out. Or you can park them manually on the left to get them out of the driver's line of sight. So the single touch bit isn't so useful then. Perhaps I'll just leave it as is and not go rallying in the rain or snow...... Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeF Posted June 29, 2010 Report Share Posted June 29, 2010 (edited) Hi All Its a total system swap thats required here as the wheelboxes on the later TR6 type set up have 22 teeth, the earlier DR3a 21 ... doesnt sound much until your wiper rack gets stripped or the arms start whacking the bulkhead top ..... then you realise. Also, the rack is slightly different because of the teeth issue, the tubes slightly different lengths (although you can bodge this), the bracketry is different (TR6 is weld on also) and lastly the wiring is fundamentally different. Not a quick swap for the extra 'reliability' offered by the later motor. The wiring change is a pig - this is because the two different motors work in a completely diferent ways. Its complicated to explain in a post and it is possible to wire a late motor into a TR4 or TR5 loom, but its messy and its never right which means on a competition car it will probably go wrong. I elected to put a 2 speed DR3a into BST82B and I have to say I think its fine. If I was doing it all again Id buy a Revington TR rally loom which has plugs on the end of most of the component circuits and fit the whole TR6 affair, purely because a replacement motor is £60 not £260 !!! but to my mind the cost of the whole change is just silly unless you are starting from scratch and building the car up. The intermittant wipe mod sounds very useful .... ill report back when ive got one up and running. Regards Tony Hmm I didn't know they wouldn't fit when I changed them, but I did lay out the parts side by side to see if there was any difference, including a rack and one wheel box I inherited from PO and I couldn't spot difference between the 3 racks, they seemed identical and all worked all the different gearboxes. Are the wheels different pitch or jsut an extra tooth? I suppose I will find out in a few years..... Originally I wasn't going to change the rack but when I turned it over I found someone had beaten me to it. The hardest part about the tube fitting was getting the bends right in the one from motor, I just don't think in 3D. I made a new wiring loom for the wipers and cheated a bit by terminating it in a screw connector strip which I pushed under the wiper mounting bracket, this enabled me to easily change the connections to the wiper plug harness, as I got the wiring wrong a couple of times (it is different due to the self park which works a different way to the 4 as much as two speed). The bracket from Revingtons comes with nuts and bolts to fit it, welding would be more appropraite on a build up. You can see how the bolted version looks in my original post picture. MIke Edited June 29, 2010 by MikeF Quote Link to post Share on other sites
david ferry Posted June 30, 2010 Report Share Posted June 30, 2010 Hella do an intermittent device that works well/properly with a TR6 wiper motor. I've got one on my TR3 and one of the TR4s. The other will get one as the build progresses. Sadly, they aren't cheap, or for that matter easy to find. I think the last one I bought cost c£40 and my local motor factor had to order it in specially. If anyone wants the part number, let me know and I'll have a rummage to find it. David Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ade-TR4 Posted June 30, 2010 Report Share Posted June 30, 2010 Might be worth a punt at 99p http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CLASSIC-KIT-CAR-LINWOOD-INTERMITTENT-WIPER-CONTROL-KIT-/170504842471?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item27b2e16ce7 Cheers Ade Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RAHTR4 Posted June 30, 2010 Report Share Posted June 30, 2010 On this one I have to disagree with the cognoscenti - perhaps a glitch of memory? The same wiper wheel box part was fitted to TR3 (from TS12568), TR4, TR4A, TR250 and TR5 and it has a total of 22 teeth. The same drive rack part was fitted to TR3 (from TS12568), TR4, TR4A, TR250, TR5 and the TR6. The wiper wheel box was however changed for the TR6, its shape is much fatter / squarer, however it can be assumed that it also has 22 teeth to match the rack used? - although I have never inspected one to confirm this. The use of a TR6 wiper motor in an earlier car is therefore quite do-able as Mike has found out - plus they are a cheaper buy than the DR3A item. The only other difference I can see is that the TR6 wiper motor has a sweep of 115 degrees whereas the DR3A unit is 120 degrees - whether this amount of reduction in the sweep is noticable I do not know - perhaps Mike can comment? Regards, Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeF Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 On this one I have to disagree with the cognoscenti - perhaps a glitch of memory? The same wiper wheel box part was fitted to TR3 (from TS12568), TR4, TR4A, TR250 and TR5 and it has a total of 22 teeth. The same drive rack part was fitted to TR3 (from TS12568), TR4, TR4A, TR250, TR5 and the TR6. The wiper wheel box was however changed for the TR6, its shape is much fatter / squarer, however it can be assumed that it also has 22 teeth to match the rack used? - although I have never inspected one to confirm this. The use of a TR6 wiper motor in an earlier car is therefore quite do-able as Mike has found out - plus they are a cheaper buy than the DR3A item. The only other difference I can see is that the TR6 wiper motor has a sweep of 115 degrees whereas the DR3A unit is 120 degrees - whether this amount of reduction in the sweep is noticable I do not know - perhaps Mike can comment? Regards, Richard Hmmm, I think I would say that even a complete new system still has a lot of flop in it, and with the rather inneffective low pressure wiper arms and blades being the same, the notional loss of 5 degrees is not detectable Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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