RogerH Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Hi Folks, this problem is fairly similar to one posted recently but slightly different. Turn ignition on. Turn key to starter position. Starter pre-engages. Starter spins up for 1 second maybe less. Drive dog disengages but continues to spin whilst key in starter position. Turn key off - starter stops spinning. Meanwhile the engine has not started. This sequence similar when solenoid button manually depressed. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 When the starter engages, does the engine actually turn over (even if only for a very short time)? In other words, is the pinion of the starter motor actually engaging with the toothed ring of the flywheel? With these pre-engaged starters, which come from various sources, one has to ensure that the position of the motor is correct in relation to the ring gear on the flywheel. I seem to remember that mine has a steel plate between the motor and the casting of the crankcase, which brings the motor forward (forward being towards the front of the car). I'm wondering whether the pinion on your motor is being flung so far that it goes past the ring gear into space (i.e. to the rear of the flywheel's ring gear), where it will whirr away doing sweet nothing! Your symptoms would suggest this is a possibility (i.e. a brief engagement with the ring gear, followed by a spinning which is not turning the engine). I think you need to remove the starter motor and measure how far the pinion moves when power is applied (you can do this without actually applying power, by turning the pinion so that it winds up the shaft to the end position). Measure the position of the ring gear inside the crankcase casting and compare the two measurements. Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Hi Ian, yes - it does turn the engine, but briefly. It sounds as though it is being thrown back out of engagement rather than passing through. As you say starter out - thats Saturday sorted then!! Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dazzer Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Hi Roger High torque starters have and continue to be the bane of my life. The have proven to be the most unreliable part on the TR4, which failed in similar style to yours. I removed it, gave it to a friendly auto electrician (as it was just out of warranty) he stripped it fixed the problem ( something to do with the pinion engagement adjustment?) and relieved me of £30.00. Great for six months and then it developed a new problem in that nothing happened intermittently. Off it came again and to a different auto electrician (we'd moved) this time a was a misaligned/faulty contact assembly in the solenoid. New part fitted and this time £35.00 changed hands. At this point the electrician informed me that he repaired this type of starter all the time (which is fitted to quite a few different cars old and new, they just change the adaptor plate) He said they were pants quality but he liked them because they kept him in business! Ok you would think... Not. Six months on the Triumph 2000 which has a high torque starter fitted. Failed to operate...! Off came the starter... I'm getting good at this now. Down to the same sparky took it to bits while I waited showed me the problem. Solenoid contacts again, rebuilt another £35.00. six months on... the TR4 has started to intermittently not start again...!!!! I myself have striped it this time and the contacts in the solenoid are shot again! I've therefore decided to have the original Lucas starters rebuilt, I tested them on a battery and they still work perfectly 45 years old. The separate solenoids are still operative once again 45 years old and they've never been touched. Modern electrickery! No wonder the trains stop when it snows! I'm having a grumpy old man moment again. Cheers Darren Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Roy Auto Electric in Charlton 01932 770136 can rebuild your original starter for you. He did mine on the 6, and more recently the one on The Shed. About £80, depending. Ivor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnp Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 It's something that's been recommended to me... now not so sure. My car judders from side to side with the 'original' starter motor. Has anyone purchased a Hi=torque starter and been happy with it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Smokey Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 Very happy with my rebuilt original Lucas starter, and the one I had on my 1965 TR4 in the late '60s never created a problem. I have a spare starter as well - just in case, as well as a spare generator. I drove that Lucas-laden '65 TR4 50,000 miles without any breakdowns over five years way back when. I get as many NOS Lucas parts as I can find. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ctc77965o Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 Guys, These starters are 'snake oil'... poor reliability seems common. Over on the e-type forums there are regular complaints similar to yours. Suggest revert to trusty Lucas M418G, these are rugged & reliable & parts are cheap. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mk1PI Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 (edited) Agree that they are not reliable... I 've had two failures in 5 years with my PI - BUT they are good when they work / they are lighter and in some cases like a 6-cyl allow removal with a bigger bunch of bananas race exhaust so it horses for courses. I think a 'standard car' would definitely be best with the original in good condition though Edited January 22, 2010 by Mk1PI Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR 2100 Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 When I had my high torque starter fitted, I was told there was a range of quality and prices, some being quite cheap but effectively a recon unit rather than a new high quality unit, and not very good quality at that. Maybe that explains why some seem to be less than half the price of others. I would expect this to have a significant effect on reliability. I haven't used mine enough to comment on it's longer term reliability, but you get what you pay for (sometimes!). Maybe that's part of the reliability problem? AlanR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
67_gt6 Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 I've had mine, TR Shop, for about 15k miles. Was a relief to get away from some of the voodoo involved in turning over my failing standard starter, and is very easy to remove when/if that day comes. It is particularly good for giving the beast a lengthy plugs-out turnover after oil changes/protracted layups. Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR4Geoff Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 It's something that's been recommended to me... now not so sure. My car judders from side to side with the 'original' starter motor. Has anyone purchased a Hi=torque starter and been happy with it? Hi John, Have had a Hi-torque starter on my '4' for just over 4 years (approx 31.5K miles). No problems as yet!(a very dodgy statement to make). Can't at present confirm the make, but it cost £158 plus VAT at the time.I have an extractor manifold and there are no problems relative to that and the starter. Will try to confirm further info if you are interested. Geoff Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 Hi Geoff, the present starter is apprx 6 years old (60K Miles) and was working OK until I came along to the TVG at the end of December Can I claim on your insurance. I shall attack the little bu99er tomorrow and report back. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bald Rick Posted January 23, 2010 Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 (edited) Interesting; Nippon Denso starter motors are fitted to just about every japanese car ever made and quite a few others and have a reputation for being "bomb proof". Whilst I don't doubt for one moment the experiences of forum members. I would have thought if they were failing at the rate indicated here, it would have made the national press. Perhaps it has something to with the conversion "bits"? Tony Edited January 23, 2010 by Bald Rick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Hi Folks, feedback time - took the starter motor out this morning expecting to see chewed up dog etc. However all appears well. The dog shows that it has been engaging onto the starter ring for apprx 3/4 of it tooth width. and not passing beyond. Actuating the pre-engage on the bench showed that it operated well and very positively The only thing I could fault was the short inter-connect wire from the heavy 12V cable to the pre-engage connector (apprx 20amps being drawn) which was a bit on the thin side but still working This was replaced with some 30amp ring main cable After re-installing (which is quite good fun, not unlike a Rubic's cube)it started OK. My conclusion is that for some reason the pre-engage was running out of puff and allowing the dog to come off the ring. The thin cable may have been responsible (but I doubt it). I'm off to give it a test drive (I know this will not affect the starting process much but I will get a pint of beer out of it). Many thanks for your thoughts & replies. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Hi Folks, ok the run went well. I started the car twice (there and back), both without problems. However the best bit was the pub (The White Hart at Whelpley Hill, Chesham) Fullers London Pride £1.50 Excellent food also. It may be possible that the under-rated connetor wire was the probem. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytr5 Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 (edited) After the Great Malvern floods and my TR5 decided to emulate the 'Yellow Submarine' which is now known as in NLG the modern starter packed up.I pulled it apart and cleaned the corrosion out of it( due to being underwater all night in the flood)put all back together and it has worked fine since.It has been on the TR5 for 5 years and was no problem till this point and has worked ok since.This is the first I have heard of the problems others have had.Is this a problem with them or not.there must be shed loads out there that have been fitted to our TR,s.We need to know,so how about feed back from owners.Good or bad. Regards Harry TR5 Nutter Edited January 24, 2010 by harrytr5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
graeme Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 My TR4A has had a hi torque starter on for two years. No problems so far, fingers crossed. Cheers Graeme Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR NIALL Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Have one fitted to my 6 and no problems as of yet,fitted about 5 years and has seen action in the Malvern floods. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bennem Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Not had a problem with my high torque starter over the last year and a half with 10kmiles Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR4Geoff Posted January 26, 2010 Report Share Posted January 26, 2010 Hi Geoff, the present starter is apprx 6 years old (60K Miles) and was working OK until I came along to the TVG at the end of December Can I claim on your insurance. I shall attack the little bu99er tomorrow and report back. Roger Hi Roger, Have only just picked up your reply - would have loved to have given the London Group GL a bump start out of the car park! Seriously though, can't believe the 'thin wire' would give you problems now. Come down to TVG next Sunday and we'll give it another go! Cheers Geoff Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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