88V8 Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 So what's the connection between this, the alternator, and the crank pulley ? I'd never have guessed, but all will be revealed.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 So what's the connection between this, the alternator, and the crank pulley ?I'd never have guessed, but all will be revealed.... Ivor, did something in the alternator seize and jam the fan belt ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PILKIE Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 (edited) Hi Ivor. Was the dexion,"obviously another modification on your car!! " in the first pic,holding something vital together near the crank pulley that gave way!!, jammed on the bottom hose blocking the flow,thus overheat the cooling,blowing the pressure cap to bits,and then soak the alternator in expelled water shorting it out!! Cant wait to find out!!! Dave Edited October 26, 2008 by PILKIE Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Collins Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 The damage to the rear face of the radiator looks horribly familiar. Back in 1974 I went slowly through some floodwater, the fan blades distorted and trepanned their way through the rad a bit like that. I never did replace the fan. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Millward Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 That looks like damage caused by a wildly thrashing fan belt Ivor. Did your crankshaft pully come loose or off? Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 That looks like damage caused by a wildly thrashing fan belt Ivor. Did your crankshaft pully come loose or off? Tony The center picture appears to show the fan belt still in place and under tension. Re the fan hitting the rad, that sounds plausible but if the fan had ruptured the rad why would the cap blow up like that ?. I can imagine the fan migrating into the rad and stopping if the pulley got beyond the woodruff key and causing the boil but that doesnt involve the alternator.. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Millward Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 The center picture appears to show the fan belt still in place and under tension. Re the fan hitting the rad, that sounds plausible but if the fan had ruptured the rad why would the cap blow up like that ?. I can imagine the fan migrating into the rad and stopping if the pulley got beyond the woodruff key and causing the boil but that doesnt involve the alternator.. Stan I reckon Ivor put the fanbelt back on as a red herring...or is that the alternator?... Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Robin Powell Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 It is not unusual for the rivet in the centre of the radiator cap to rust through and the spring detach when removing it but when it was in situ before removal would have worked OK. I suspect the fan itself disintegrating as there seems to be a certain amount of powder at the bottom of the rad which could have been shaved off on the rad. Don't keep us in suspense too long! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted October 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 (edited) Still haven't got it all apart as I have work to do on the chimney (the house chimney that is) but here's the story: Since, oooh, about July, say 2,000 miles ago, been getting a squeak from the front of the engine. Like the squeak you get from a rusty gate hinge, but in time with the idle. Squeak squeak squeak…. Every start-up from cold, disappeared after a minute or so. Fan belt, I thought. Changed it. Squeak squeak squeak Listen with the stethoscope, can't find anything, doesn't help that the noise is from cold only and stops quite soon…. At the Harpenden rally, stuck in traffic on a hot day (or should that be the hot day), the alternator fails to keep pace with the electric fan, the voltage collapses the fuel pump stops the engine stops - I posted at the time... Should have thought more about that, after all the fan has been on the car 30 years, (no mechanical fan) and the (18ACR) alternator works OK, why should it fail to keep up with daytime demand? Anyway, I put on a 65A alternator, but have since noticed that it still doesn't keep up with demand. Mental note to remake the engine earth, as suggested on the Forum. And - squeak squeak squeak Well, that only leaves the water pump, even though the stethoscope says not. Fit the s/h pump I got from TimS. Checking the old one, it's obvious there's nothing wrong, and sure enough - squeak squeak squeak We do the Lakes tour, 950 miles, no related trouble, just squeak squeak squeak Then I have a brainwave. It's the rockers. The rear gallery oil plug has fallen out and the front rocker gear is dry, it stops squeaking after a while because of oil mist. In the warm glow of this cast-iron hypothesis I remove the rocker box…….. the oil plug is in place …… run the engine, lots of oil. Squeak squeak squeak Now we're off the Silverstone for The Birkett. Or rather, not 'we' as the wife isn't persuaded of the entertainment value of hanging around the garage or the windy circuit watching a lot of non-classics in a handicap event, so it's just me. Fatal, I think. Because she regards the car as a tourer and clutches the side of her seat when I boot it (yes, still, after 30 years) whereas I regard it as a sports car. So when she's with me, I don't boot it too much, but this morning, well… So off I go, early in the morning. Now, I didn't actually cover the ground very fast. Had to scrape the frost off the other cars before we could move them to get the TR out of the garage, and being new to winter top-down motoring, the freezing wind soon detected the chinks in my clothing, no scarf, gloves that are having an argument with the sleeves of my jacket, etc etc, and I must admit that after 20 miles I was frozen, so motorway progress was confined to a sedate 3,000 rpm, say +/-80mph. But…. off the motorway, plenty of revs, plenty of throttle, enjoying the acceleration, 75 miles to go. Anyway… one odd thing at the start .. stopped for petrol after about 2 miles. Two gentle miles, I never thrash it until it's warmed up – and the engine ran-on quite badly - WTH !! No underbonnet problems I can see, already checked oil, water, etc as usual. Setting off again the water temp is OK the fan's not coming on, so I sort of forget it. Arrive at Silverstone after the last dozen miles from the motorway, plenty of acceleration away from roundabouts etc. Had forgotten to get out my ticket. Stop the engine. Go to the boot get out my bag get the ticket restart the engine. Wooosh. Heap plenty steam. Move forward to the ticket control. 'Your car's a bit hot mate' says the chap on the gate, batting vainly at the clouds of vapour swirling around us. The temp gauge is bang over to Hot, never seen that before Decide to go and park. Drive slowly over the track bridge, around behind the garages, to the car park at Copse, maybe a mile & a half. Lift the bonnet, engine still running. There's coolant (4Life) coming out between the header tank and the rad core. And the rad has clearly burst half way down at the back, there's like a red chocolate fountain coming out and collecting in a puddle of foam at the bottom, plus more coolant coming out of the front. Perhaps I should stop the engine… Nothing to be done until it cools, off to the team garage, spend a couple of hours on the pitwall crew, then after lunch decide I ought to do something about the car. Ever the optimist, scrounge a can of Radweld from Andy Vowell and with a quart of water head for the car. The radiator cap has disintegrated Pour in the water, it vanishes. Back to the garage, John Davies finds me another cap, so that's two things to add to the tool kit. A gallon of water later, running the engine a bit between additions, plus the can of Radweld, leave it all to cool again. Thank goodness it's an iron engine…. An hour passes, run it up to temperature, no leaks, but the squeak squeak squeak is now very pronounced. I call out my Breakdown insurers. Two hours or more, they say Contemplating the wreckage I'm joined by a chap in overalls, we peer under the bonnet I recount the past and present symptoms. "Ah, so does it have a blah di blah?" he asks. "Yes" I reply, "and moreover bloop di bloop" "Well, that's it then, what's happening is dum di dum…. I had that on a Mitsubishi." So. That would explain the alternator mystery as well. Arriving home under own steam (hoho) after very slow journey at 1,500 rpm - Breakdown insurers had later said yet another two hours so I told them not to bother - I pretty much confirm his assessment the next morning by running engine briefly with no fan belt. And no squeak. Have to confess I'd never have thought of it, wish I'd asked his name. Ivor Edited October 27, 2008 by 88V8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnny250 Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 SOOOOO....? is it anything to do with a very rubbery crank pulley, chafing, distributor swinging ignition timing wandering sort of thing? john PS get it fixed for the weekend! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianC Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 This is turning into as gripping and compulsive a 'Whatdunnit' as Frank's Stuck Engine - Need Help!!! Can't wait to reach the last page. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ntc Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 At the Harpenden rally, stuck in traffic on a hot day (or should that be the hot day), the alternator fails to keep pace with the electric fan, the voltage collapses the fuel pump stops the engine stops - I posted at the time... Should have thought more about that, after all the fan has been on the car 30 years, (no mechanical fan) and the (18ACR) alternator works OK, why should it fail to keep up with daytime demand? Anyway, I put on a 65A alternator, but have since noticed that it still doesn't keep up with demand. Mental note to remake the engine earth, as suggested on the Forum. And - squeak squeak squeak Ivor If the fan is that old you should check the amount of amps it is useing ? Regards Neil Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 I wonder if the electric fan was borderline (and hence the squeak) but due to its high current and the low amp alternator it was doing OK. Once the high amp alternator was installed the fan finally got the amps it was craving and that pushed it over the edge, leading to the resulting fan failure and boil. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kiwifrog Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 "Ah, so does it have a blah di blah?" he asks. "Yes" I reply, "and moreover bloop di bloop" "Well, that's it then, what's happening is dum di dum…. I had that on a Mitsubishi." Spent all afternoon googling websites to find the exact technical meaning of a blah di blah and bloop di bloop but could only find thingmyjigs ougymaflips wotzitmecalleds and thingys. Am I looking in the wrong language? should I look at Dutch or Icelandic sites ? Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodri Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Are you sure that that red liquid is not mouse blood? I think a family of mice have been living in the electric fan, whilst the engine was cold they could squeak, squeak, squeak, but each time when the fan came on one or two mice were thrown against the radiator, and were badly injured - bits of ground up bone is visible in one of the pics. Eventually the radiator could no longer take any more mouse bodies being fired, like missiles, and finally, badly weakened, it burst. BTW the missing rivet in the cap was part of the mouse hot water system, a bit like an electric booster shower. Rod Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jersey Royal Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Are you sure that that red liquid is not mouse blood? I think a family of mice have been living in the electric fan, whilst the engine was cold they could squeak, squeak, squeak, but each time when the fan came on one or two mice were thrown against the radiator, and were badly injured - bits of ground up bone is visible in one of the pics. Eventually the radiator could no longer take any more mouse bodies being fired, like missiles, and finally, badly weakened, it burst. BTW the missing rivet in the cap was part of the mouse hot water system, a bit like an electric booster shower. Rod Love it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted October 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Well, here it is. Silly me, silly twice. First when I thought I could easily find the squeak, then decided it didn't really matter. Second, when I didn't post about it on the Forum – after all, one of you's already worked it out, could have saved me a lot of bother. Now, the rad's gone for a recore – that will be about £130 – and I could easily have blown the engine, after all the 4Life coolant boils at 160C so I hate to think what temperature it must have been running. Here's the conversation in the car park without the bloop di bloops: Contemplating the wreckage I'm joined by a chap in overalls, we peer under the bonnet I recount the past and present symptoms. "Ah, so has it a two-part crank pulley?" "Yes" I reply, "and the timing marks have slipped" "Well, that's it then, what's happening is that squeak is the inner and outer parts of the pulley are slipping. The rubber's lost its grip. It squeaks until it warms up, then the rubber gets hot enough with the friction that it doesn't squeak any more, eventually it gets hot enough that the rubber melts and sort of self-lubricates, then the pulley really slips and the water pump goes slow…. I had that on a Mitsubishi." So there we are. It must have been slipping pretty badly as soon as I set out, to be running-on after just two miles. Before that, I suppose it was getting gradually worse, but the 4Life masked it because the 160C boiling point meant that there was no coolant loss, so nothing to bother me, I haven't topped it up since I put the coolant in there perhaps 2,000 miles ago. The last straw was that morning's heavy acceleration, after all the rubber interface has to accelerate the outer pulley the fan belt the water pump the alternator especially the alternator, and the faster you accelerate the harder it has to work. While the car was going along at 80mph with all that freezing air, that kept it under control, but with the last burst of acceleration, and then I stopped, woosh…… John Davies this morning had an interesting comment: "Found a ref to this in Kastner's first (2003)handbook. P.120 if you have one. (I don't but I'll buy one now ) He had probs with vibration damper/crank pulleys becoming loose at the rubber. Engine ran hot and power down. His test was to drill a small hole in the vee, right through the rubber and the inner hub. Then after use, a small drill can be passed through the hole onto the crank nose, provided the outer is still in line. If it isn't - the damper/pulley is scrap. Of course, if the outer is loose and you know that the engine is timed correctly, then seeing the timing marks out of line will confirm that the damper is slipping." The other symptom I didn't pick up is the alternator. Alternators put a lot of load on the pulley – after all, the alternator can slow the engine - as you'll have noticed when it's idling and you turn on the heads, or the rear window if you have one. To slow the engine takes a lot of energy. An 18ACR alternator – OK it doesn't do its full 36A for long, just when first recharging the battery, but still that's 430W and at about 30% efficiency needs an input of 1300W which is 1.75hp. And that has to be supplied through the crank pulley. So here I am with the alternator under-driven because the crank pulley can't cope, so what do I do? I hang a even bigger alternator on it. Doh !! 65A - that's over 3hp. Three horsepower So that's the other factor that finished the pulley. I suspect that when I have a working pulley on the engine, I shall find the 65A alternator is quite unnecessary, I bet the 18ACR was working perfectly well except for being underdriven because of the pulley, so I reckon I shall end up putting the 18ACR back on the engine, and the 65A on the shelf. But that's another thread, so I'll post the outcome there. Meanwhile, this morning I sawed the old pulley in half. I expected it to fall apart but it didn't, even when I tapped it with a sledgehammer. But I'm 100% certain it was duff, because of the symptoms, and because when I got home I ran the engine the next morning for a little while with the fan belt off, so no load on the pulley - and sure enough no squeak. Here's the new (well, new to me) pulley, as John suggested I drilled a small alignment hole through the vee into the inner hub, and the same hole on the other side to preserve the balance. You can be sure I'll keep an eye on it. Well deduced, Johnny250. This weekend ? – alas, the rad is away, and with the rad out for the first time I seem to have a dose of what Dr Foster calls 'Shipwright's disease' as there's wiring and paint and other stuff requiring my attention and the ignition timing to be checked and perhaps the advance curve modded, and….. a new top hose would seem prudent, and a new stat, and a new Kenlowe widget. And some more 4Life which it seems I have to order from the MGOC as only they and Demon Tweeks appear to sell it. So if your alternator seems to be struggling If the engine's mysteriously hot If the timing marks have slipped If there's a squeak squeak Do yourself a favour and replace the pulley. Ivor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 So if your alternator seems to be strugglingIf the engine's mysteriously hot If the timing marks have slipped If there's a squeak squeak Do yourself a favour and replace the pulley. Ivor Good work Ivor and thanks for the update. I wonder if you know if this was an original crank damper or if it had been rebuilt at some point. Certainly something for us all to watch out for. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JRCWeedon Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 Hi All I am having something of a "crank damper moment" myself and have been trying to identify what sort of damper it is. Mine looks completely different to Ivors i.e. no slots. Ivor is yours a standard item? Regards John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnny250 Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 Glad it's getting sorted Ivor, but although I guessed the problem, you do have me a bit concerned now, as my own pulley carries the 36-1 toothed wheel for my ignition sensor / coil pack mods....... that would have a direct impact on the ignition timing if it were to fail. Perhaps a drilled hole might be a good check for me too..... I wonder what effect a solid 'peg' would have....i.e. making it impossible to slip? john Quote Link to post Share on other sites
88V8 Posted October 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 Standard? AFAIK, yes. The damper with which I replaced it - came from Carl at TR Trader - is identical, inc slots. However, I've found that there are two sizes of pulley. The overall od is the same, but as you can see below, the pulley differs. The one nearest you is the one I cut up, the pulley od is 5.875", the one behind has a pulley od of 6.5". Having no reason to run the alternator/pump faster, I replaced smaller with smaller, so I shall be returning the larger one to Carl. Yes, Johnny I have heard of failed dampers being 'repaired' by which I presume is meant that the inner and the outer have been locked together. This guarantees the timing and the pulley function, but the third, or perhaps that should be the first function is to act as a torsional damper for the crank, and if the components of the damper are locked, then it ain't no damper no more. The TR crank has a natural harmonic at 2,500 and to run with no damper strikes me as bonkers, unless of course one only drives like granny-going-shopping. So, TBH Johnny, I wouldn't. I'd do the pinhole(s) drilling and thereafter check it as part of servicing. Annoying isn't it, when something one thought of as part of the car's landscape turns out to be perishable... Ivor PS sorry the photo's sideways, I rotated it in my software, then I rotated it again in Photobucket, and it's still sideways, mumble mumble.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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