OIL catch tank

[RobinTR6]

Has anyone experience or views on fitting an oil catch tank. I have one and was wondering whether to fit. Roger Williams seemsto think its a good idea but looking at the views on Oil coolers recently there seems to be a fair degree of 'non aligned' views. Anyway any help appreciated. B TW as weather looks good hope to get to Croxley Green tonite....

[davehop]

Hey Robin

 

I have one fitted. the main reason for it, as I understand, is to allow the engine to breathe. The original set-up recycles the "Dirty" air back via the inlet plenum. Running with a catch tank prevents this, and ensures a relatively clean air supply, whilst still allowing the engine to breath properly. I think most people use this mod when they are running without a plenum chamber - webers, Pi with K&Ns etc. I can't say what it does for performance because I fitted it after a full engine rebuild along with some other mods, so a "before and after" is a bit irrelevant. I'm currently on Pi with K&Ns, soon to be inlet trumpets with air socks, so in my case it is necessary. I have noticed a lot less fumes in the cabin overall, as the catch tank has 2 inlets (Crankcase and Rocker cover) and an outlet that feeds any fumes under the car.

I would think that "Cleaner" air to the inlets has to be a good thing?

 

 

Best

 

 

Dave

[foster461]

Has anyone experience or views on fitting an oil catch tank. I have one and was wondering whether to fit. Roger Williams seemsto think its a good idea but looking at the views on Oil coolers recently there seems to be a fair degree of 'non aligned' views. Anyway any help appreciated. B TW as weather looks good hope to get to Croxley Green tonite....

 

I'm not an expert in this so take this as just another opinion.. I had the same question after I did the Weber conversion and to some extent I am still pondering it. The crankase breather system serves several purposes. It can be designed to apply negative pressure to the crankcase to draw out oil vapor and reduce oil leaks and it allows the engine to consume vapors as part of the compustion process by shoving gasses from various sources (engine, carfbs, fuel tank etc) down the inlet manifold either directly or indirectly. Some of these sytems take in air and that is often filtered eg through the air filter(s).

 

Often this can be achieved without needing an oil catch tank but there are some exceptions for example if the engine is spitting out more oil or oil vapor than usual due to the installation of a top end oil feed, wear etc. I also noticed that the un-baffled after market valve covers spit out oil more oil than the original valve covers that have a baffle and a mesh to discourage that.

 

I started out with a simple PCV valve from the valve cover and T'd it into the servo hose. I am actively monitoring the spark plugs for signs that they are burning oil and if I see that I will add the oil catch tank and drain that back into the ctrankcase via the fuel pump blanking plate so it is a close system and I dont have to mess with it.

 

Bottom line, if the exahust and/or the plugs are telling you that you are burning oil and you can attribute that to the crankcase breather system then you probably need an oil sperator.

 

Stan

[Guest ntc]

I started out with a simple PCV valve from the valve cover and T'd it into the servo hose. I am actively monitoring the spark plugs for signs that they are burning oil and if I see that I will add the oil catch tank and drain that back into the ctrankcase via the fuel pump blanking plate so it is a close system and I dont have to mess with it.

Hi Stan

Into the servo hose? can you post a pic so i can understand this if you saw the gunk that a tank collects you would not feed it back into the engine

Neil

Edited August 6, 2008 by ntc

[marvmul]

On track racing, an oil catch tank is obligatory because it can prevent oil spilling on the track,

i.e. when a piston has burned a hole and the crankcase is suddenly pressurised.

Crankcase and valve cover are drained to the tank, and the tank has an outlet to the open air to let escape the pressure but retain the oil (helped by wire mesh in the tank)

[foster461]

I started out with a simple PCV valve from the valve cover and T'd it into the servo hose. I am actively monitoring the spark plugs for signs that they are burning oil and if I see that I will add the oil catch tank and drain that back into the ctrankcase via the fuel pump blanking plate so it is a close system and I dont have to mess with it.

Hi Stan

Into the servo hose? can you post a pic so i can understand this if you saw the gunk that a tank collects you would not feed it back into the engine

Neil

 

As I said, I am no expert so this is an early part of the experiment that may end up with an oil separator.

 

Here is the complete system as installed:

 

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e119/fos...ve/DSC_0001.jpg

 

This is s close up of the T into the servo hose:

 

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e119/fos...ve/DSC_0002.jpg

 

This is a clsoe up of the PCV valve:

 

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e119/fos...ve/DSC_0003.jpg

 

I have seen what comes out of the valve cover, it looks like a new life form is begining. I am carefully monitoring the plugs and the tail pipe and so far no sign of anything bad happening (no smoke, no plugs fouling etc) and no other adverse side effects but I have yet to take it on a trip longer than 20 miles and that may change the behaviour somewhat.

 

Stan

[Guest ntc]

Hi Stan

Sorry Stan that will not work long term please take it off you have reduced the vacuum to the servo and it will contaminate it

Neil

[foster461]

Hi Stan

Sorry Stan that will not work long term please take it off you have reduced the vacuum to the servo and it will contaminate it

Neil

 

Neil, as I undertand it the PCV valve is closed at high vacuum levels and since the interaction with the servo is essentially in "suck" mode I assumed it was less likely for anything to tavel up the hose to the servo. I dont know that what I have is vastly different from what is installed on early cars or what Tom F has on his 250.

 

Stan

[foster461]

Neil, as I undertand it the PCV valve is closed at high vacuum levels and since the interaction with the servo is essentially in "suck" mode I assumed it was less likely for anything to tavel up the hose to the servo. I dont know that what I have is vastly different from what is installed on early cars or what Tom F has on his 250.

 

Stan

 

BTW I have obseverved no adverse effects on braking in the week or so that I have been runing with this configuration. I based the theory partly on this description of crancase ventilation and PCV valves:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCV_valve

 

Stan

[Guest ntc]

Neil, as I undertand it the PCV valve is closed at high vacuum levels and since the interaction with the servo is essentially in "suck" mode I assumed it was less likely for anything to tavel up the hose to the servo. I dont know that what I have is vastly different from what is installed on early cars or what Tom F has on his 250.

 

Stan

 

Hi Stan

When you switch the engine off the servo works like bellows and draws air and your case water in,if the PVC valve is closed at high vacuum how is the engine breathing ? lets all learn something

Neil

[foster461]

Hi Stan

When you switch the engine off the servo works like bellows and draws air and your case water in,if the PVC valve is closed at high vacuum how is the engine breathing ? lets all learn something

Neil

 

Accoring to the Wikipedia article the PCV valve works like this:

 

The PCV valve connects the crankcase to the intake manifold from a location more-or-less opposite the breather connection. Typical locations include the opposite valve cover that the breather tube connects to on a V engine. A typical location is the valve cover(s), although some engines place the valve in locations far from the valve cover. The valve is simple, but actually performs a complicated control function. An internal restrictor (generally a cone or ball) is held in "normal" (engine off, zero vacuum) position with a light spring, exposing the full size of the PCV opening to the intake manifold. With the engine running, the tapered end of the cone is drawn towards the opening in the PCV valve, restricting the opening proportionate to the level of engine vacuum vs. spring tension. At idle, the intake manifold vacuum is near maximum. It is at this time the least amount of blow by is actually occurring, so the PCV valve provides the largest amount of (but not complete) restriction. As engine load increases, vacuum on the valve decreases proportionally and blow by increases proportionally. Sensing a lower level of vacuum, the spring returns the cone to the "open" position to allow more air flow. At full throttle, there is nearly zero vacuum. At this point the PCV valve is nearly useless, and most combustion gases escape via the "breather tube" where they are then drawn in to the engine's intake manifold anyway.

[Guest ntc]

BTW I have observed no adverse effects on braking in the week or so that I have been runing with this configuration. I based the theory partly on this description of crancase ventilation and PCV valves:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCV_valve

 

Stan

Stan

You have done a lot of research on this and i commend you please keep us all informed.I have a few concerns ie quote {

It is critical that the parts of the PCV system be kept clean and open, otherwise air flow will be insufficient. A plugged or malfunctioning PCV system will eventually damage an engine. PCV problems are primarily due to neglect or poor maintenance, typically engine oil change intervals that are inadequate for the engine's driving conditions. A poorly-maintained engine's PCV system will eventually become contaminated with sludge, causing serious problems. If the engine's lubricating oil is changed with adequate frequency, the PCV system will remain clear practically for the life of the engine. However, since the valve is operating continuously as one operates the vehicle, it will fail over time. Typical maintenance schedules for gasoline engines include PCV valve replacement whenever the air filter or spark plugs are replaced. The long life of the valve despite the harsh operating environment is due to the trace amount of oil droplets suspended in the air that flows through the valve that keep it lubricated.

 

ie Stan forget to maintain it and something will go bang

Regards

Neil

Edited August 12, 2008 by ntc

[Tom Fremont]

Stan seems to have done fundamentally the same thing I've done ( now with 74.000 miles to its credit ). If anything, his rig is simpler and if it works as well as mine it's a fine way to go. No fumes, no oil to contend with, nice and dry valve cover seal - what more could you ask for ? As for oil consumption, I've got no complaints with 2000 miles/ quart ( U.S. ) with the above miles. I think it was down to ~1600-1700 miles when I had the rocker oil feed fitted Oil consumption prior was not recorded, and if memory serves the system went on before the 1st quart was consumed.

 

Pic of my new one re-attached for reference. Note that with the SMITHS PCV valve a supplemental air feed is used which is seen routed to the rear air cleaner, as it was originally on the TR250. Stan's does without...

 

 

[foster461]

Stan seems to have done fundamentally the same thing I've done ( now with 74.000 miles to its credit ). If anything, his rig is simpler and if it works as well as mine it's a fine way to go. No fumes, no oil to contend with, nice and dry valve cover seal - what more could you ask for ? As for oil consumption, I've got no complaints with 2000 miles/ quart ( U.S. ) with the above miles. I think it was down to ~1600-1700 miles when I had the rocker oil feed fitted Oil consumption prior was not recorded, and if memory serves the system went on before the 1st quart was consumed.

 

Pic of my new one re-attached for reference. Note that with the SMITHS PCV valve a supplemental air feed is used which is seen routed to the rear air cleaner, as it was originally on the TR250. Stan's does without...

 

 

 

 

I'll monitor my system closely ( plugs, tailpipe, brakes) and see how it goes. The PCV valve itself is a $2.00 item so easy to change along with the oil/filter if that is what it takes. There are more sophisticated valves that have air inputs also, I may play with one of them at some point as an optimization. Once I lost the Strombergs I lost the crankcase vent and my pathetic hack with a plastic bottle was not working with oil all over the place and fumes in the cockpit. All of that has now stopped and now I'm back to focusing on the Webers..

 

Stan

[Guest ntc]

I'll monitor my system closely ( plugs, tailpipe, brakes) and see how it goes. The PCV valve itself is a $2.00 item so easy to change along with the oil/filter if that is what it takes. There are more sophisticated valves that have air inputs also, I may play with one of them at some point as an optimization. Once I lost the Strombergs I lost the crankcase vent and my pathetic hack with a plastic bottle was not working with oil all over the place and fumes in the cockpit. All of that has now stopped and now I'm back to focusing on the Webers..

 

Stan

 

I guess it is down to the bling factor with you guys over the pond? I dont think either one of your cars could do five laps on circuit let alone be just driven like it should be with that system and still have an engine

[foster461]

I guess it is down to the bling factor with you guys over the pond? I dont think either one of your cars could do five laps on circuit let alone be just driven like it should be with that system and still have an engine

 

Neil, there is a small bling element especially with the Webers that are overkill in my case but the rest of it is all solid performance stuff including the engine and the suspension. The extra HP I got from the higher compression and cam etc makes this TR take off like a rocket (3rd gear especially is a blast and more so when the OD is used) and I bottle out well before the engine is telling me it has had enough. The money spent on balancing was well worth it too as the engine is as smooth as silk and I'm smiling from ear to ear every chance I get to drive it.

 

Stan

[stuart]

I had a PCV valve block on a Volvo turbo and it was forcing oil down into the cylinders and out the exhaust! Oil was literally running out of the exhaust pipe. A bit 007!

Stuart

Edited August 6, 2008 by stuart

[foster461]

I had a PCV valve block on a Volvo turbo and it was forcing oil down into the cylinders and out the exhaust! Oil was literally running out of the exhaust pipe. A bit 007!

Stuart

 

That is good to know Stuart. I was hoping that if the valve failed it would do so in an obvious way and it sounds like it certainly did that on the Volvo.

 

Stan

[Alec Pringle]

Hi Stan,

 

If the PCV valve packs up, then as Stuart observes, you'll know something is wrong - just don't panic !!

 

As for the bling and underbonnet (underhood!) gizmos . . . I'd reserve judgement Neil, what looks like it should go well on the track and what actually goes well under pressure aren't always the same thing. Baps, barm cakes and muffins aren't always what they're labelled

 

That should have our transatlantic friends hunting through Wikipedia !!!

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[RobinTR6]

Hi Stan,

 

If the PCV valve packs up, then as Stuart observes, you'll know something is wrong - just don't panic !!

 

As for the bling and underbonnet (underhood!) gizmos . . . I'd reserve judgement Neil, what looks like it should go well on the track and what actually goes well under pressure aren't always the same thing. Baps, barm cakes and muffins aren't always what they're labelled

 

That should have our transatlantic friends hunting through Wikipedia !!!

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

 

Well, obviously a topic of some interest. I have a stock PI system with the standard plenum etc, and judging from the general comments it wont hurt and may well be helpful, so I'll stick it on and watch the situation. Thanks

[88V8]

Well, obviously a topic of some interest. I have a stock PI system with the standard plenum etc, and judging from the general comments it wont hurt and may well be helpful, so I'll stick it on and watch the situation.

 

If you intend to use the car only during the summer and for decent runs where it gets fully warm - fine.

 

If you use it in the winter, or for short hops, bear in mind that the positive scavenging of water vapour from the crankcase and rocker box is important in preventing condensation and sludging, and will not happen with a catch tank.

 

Ivor

[modelbuilder]

Stan seems to have done fundamentally the same thing I've done ( now with 74.000 miles to its credit ). If anything, his rig is simpler and if it works as well as mine it's a fine way to go. No fumes, no oil to contend with, nice and dry valve cover seal - what more could you ask for ? As for oil consumption, I've got no complaints with 2000 miles/ quart ( U.S. ) with the above miles. I think it was down to ~1600-1700 miles when I had the rocker oil feed fitted Oil consumption prior was not recorded, and if memory serves the system went on before the 1st quart was consumed.

 

Pic of my new one re-attached for reference. Note that with the SMITHS PCV valve a supplemental air feed is used which is seen routed to the rear air cleaner, as it was originally on the TR250. Stan's does without...

 

 

 

Wow, that's real shiny man!

[Guest ntc]

If you intend to use the car only during the summer and for decent runs where it gets fully warm - fine.

 

If you use it in the winter, or for short hops, bear in mind that the positive scavenging of water vapour from the crankcase and rocker box is important in preventing condensation and sludging, and will not happen with a catch tank.

 

Ivor

 

Ivor

This is why the inside of the plenum and throttle bodies get so dirty

 

Neil

[Guest ntc]

Hi Stan

I am still with you on this and it has made 1st page on google uk search ( oil separator pcv valve) ,good for the register . However rained off work today so i have been doing a bit of research on this I noticed most all of the valves are fitted on top of the valve cover to drain any oil back hopes this helps http://www.106rallye.co.uk/members/dynofie...thersystems.pdf

 

Neil

Edited August 7, 2008 by ntc

[foster461]

If you intend to use the car only during the summer and for decent runs where it gets fully warm - fine.

 

If you use it in the winter, or for short hops, bear in mind that the positive scavenging of water vapour from the crankcase and rocker box is important in preventing condensation and sludging, and will not happen with a catch tank.

 

Ivor

 

I think it depends on what this thing looks like. If it is just a can that you run the valve cover vent into then it is not going to do much for crankcase ventilation. If it is an oil separator that sits inline with the existing ventilation system then it might help reduce the amount of **** that gets combusted although you now have to deal with the toxic waste collected in the tank.

 

Stan