Ujs

[Jersey Royal]

Hi,

 

My car has had a slight clonk from rear on take off for a little while, i have read previous postings.

 

So first off, i am going to get the rear in the air, carry out a visual inspection , torque up, and re grease ujs.

 

Then see what happens.

 

Have read in Roger Williams book that there are two qualitys of Ujs.

 

I would appreciate if some one could recommend a supplier for the beeter quality ujs, just in case its the Ujs are my problem.

 

Tar Muchly

 

Guy

 

Update.

Prop uj has circlips, however the ujs in the driveshafts which are the uprated Revington sliding linear bearing type have GMB on them and no circlip. Also note how are you supposed to grease up the uj that is in the trailing arm?

 

All looks ok, diff mounts poly blue at front rear are metalistic rubber.

Edited March 4, 2008 by Jersey Royal

[foster461]

Guy, it sounds like you are doing the right things looking for a clonk..

 

I didnt quite follow this question, it sounds like you have some custom drive shafts, is that what you are refering to below ?. With the standard sliding spline driveshafts it is generally easier to take them off every year or so and clean/lube them on the bench.

 

Stan

 

Also note how are you supposed to grease up the uj that is in the trailing arm?

[harrytr5]

I have thought about drilling a hole under the trailing arm directly under the grease nipple on the outboard UJ.Not sure if this would be safe to do unless someone else will tell me different.If it works and is safe it will make life so easy.

Regards Harry TR5 Nutter.

[Tom Fremont]

I've found the GMB type joints to be a tighter fit than some others, and assemble without the needles falling out of place ( @#$!!%#@ ). Made in Japan too.

 

The U-joint in the trailing arm is inaccessible to a grease gun in situ. The odds of them outliving the original grease are not good in a driven vehicle, as they see twice the load of the driveshaft joints even thought they're the same size .

 

I'm with Harry; I wouldn't [ further ] weaken the trailing arm with an extra hole without it being blessed by a reputable specialist.

[Jersey Royal]

Thanks Stan Harry and Tom., For you help.

 

Did a check over and grase up , apart from outward ujs and clonk has vanished.

 

Anyway am going to remove wheels , drum, udo six nuts that hold up to trailing arm and ease out the drive shaft sufficiently so i can attach grease gun. Putting back with new nylocs. Am looking for the torque of these nuts but cant find.

 

any idea of the torque for thses six nylocs.?

 

Thanks

 

Guy

[davehop]

Hi Guy

 

the six nylocs holding the hub to the trailing arm? Should be no more than hand tight - unf thread in soft-ish alloy! There's a general consensus that these threads are best replaced with UNC helicoils. I've heard 20lb/ft torque mentioned. Better Check that it wasn't 20NM though!

 

Best

 

Dave

 

Just found the thread: http://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index....amp;hl=helicoil

Edited March 5, 2008 by davehop

[Jersey Royal]

Hi Guy

 

the six nylocs holding the hub to the trailing arm? Should be no more than hand tight - unf thread in soft-ish alloy! There's a general consensus that these threads are best replaced with UNC helicoils. I've heard 20lb/ft torque mentioned. Better Check that it wasn't 20NM though!

 

Best

 

Dave

 

Just found the thread: http://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index....amp;hl=helicoil

 

 

Thanks for the above info very interesting, i really do hope i dont have to go down that route. Am sure i would muck that up.

Its typical isnt it all i want to do is grease up the uj. A little job you would think, may turn out to be a bigger one.

Dave did you take any picys?

 

Cheers

 

Guy

Edited March 5, 2008 by Jersey Royal

[harrytr5]

The six nyloc nuts are torqued to 16lbs and no more.I have heli-coiled these before and is a very easy job.You will know when they need this as you can not torque them up and the stud pulls out with the nyloc.It does seem very strange that Triumph designed this crucial part which is a **** piece of engineering.

Regards Harry TR5 Nutter.

[foster461]

The six nyloc nuts are torqued to 16lbs and no more.I have heli-coiled these before and is a very easy job.You will know when they need this as you can not torque them up and the stud pulls out with the nyloc.It does seem very strange that Triumph designed this crucial part which is a **** piece of engineering.

Regards Harry TR5 Nutter.

 

Harry, one of several design areas where we just scratch our heads and wonder what the heck were they thinking. I have to imagine that they were well aware of the implications of some of these decisions but it didnt matter when your time horizon was for a car with a lifespan of maybe 10 years. I dont think they ever imagined there would still be crackpots 30+ years later still driving them.

 

In the register magazine last few issues there is a nice series of articles about the designers and engneers, it would be very interesting to go back in time to the meeting where someone decided to use fine thread studs in the alu TA's, who raised the objection, why it was ruled out.. Ditto the plenum drain, diff mounts.. half a thrust washer..

 

 

Stan

[Tom Fremont]

Guy,

 

For the trouble of accessing the outer U-joints I'd rather just replace them and feel secure in knowing they're going to last a while. The job is technically easy but a fair bit of work

[Jersey Royal]

Guy,

 

For the trouble of accessing the outer U-joints I'd rather just replace them and feel secure in knowing they're going to last a while. The job is technically easy but a fair bit of work

 

 

The Gmb Uj are very heavy duty and very tight. I got one side out, had to undo uj at diff, and pulled straight, looks like new, all greased up, put back, but have to get new nylocs.

 

Whist i was there and had good access to the brake lines i decided to replace the flexible rubber pipe with a new set of braided hoses i have had for a year and never got round to it. Well messed up one of the connection to copper pipe, so got to replace the section that goes accross the diff.

 

Oh and what sort of torque should you use to do up the linkage to the diff ?, i cant see how you could get one in?

 

Cheers

 

Guy

Edited March 5, 2008 by Jersey Royal

[88V8]

Harry, one of several design areas where we just scratch our heads and wonder what the heck were they thinking.

In the register magazine last few issues there is a nice series of articles about the designers and engneers, it would be very interesting to go back in time to the meeting where someone decided to use fine thread studs in the alu TA's, who raised the objection, why it was ruled out.. Ditto the plenum drain, diff mounts.. half a thrust washer..

 

Spen King, designer of the Range Rover, joined Triumph as Chief Engineer in 71, I think it was. He only stayed a year or so, couldn't get out fast enough I imagine..

[foster461]

Spen King, designer of the Range Rover, joined Triumph as Chief Engineer in 71, I think it was. He only stayed a year or so, couldn't get out fast enough I imagine..

 

I dont think we can blame him then, we need to back to at least 1967 when the TR5 was being designed and perhaps earlier if the TR4 shares some of these shining examples of under engineering.

 

Stan

[Tom Fremont]

To be fair, they must have worked or they probably would have redesigned it during 11 years of production ( the 6 fine-threaded studs in the trailing arm ). For road use it's not likely they will fail ( loading is mostly into the arm, not away from it ) and I surmise that over-tightening is the priincipal cause of failure.

 

I think we forget the stress of time and cost under which the designers toiled. Triumphs were not likely conceived to be the sports car icons they are today, if accidentally . They were just another business enterprise which enabled a fair number of gents to get paid for playing

[Robin Powell]

Guy

 

Taking the wheel and drum off and then undoing 6 nuts is the way to go for greasing the outer UJ but while you have it there why not cut the tie holding the rubber bellow undo the alloy knurled cover pull that half apart and grease the splines while you are at it leaving the other half attached to the diff.

 

I do mine every other year on the 4A or more frequently if I do a high mileage.

 

I do the nuts up pretty lightly, about 15 ft pounds and always replace the nylocks.

 

Cheers

[Alec Pringle]

Hindsight can be a wonderful thing, and so can a sense of historical perspective when it comes to commenting on design and engineering features of our cars . . . .

 

Standard Triumph developed the Herald IRS design in the late 1950s, and Leyland developed 'our' IRS the early 60s for the 2000 range, latterly the 4A, 5, 6 sports cars and 2.5 saloons.

 

It's worth, perhaps, recalling that cart-sprung beam axles were pretty much the mass-production norm for front-engined rear-wheel-drive cars in those days; and aluminium alloy wasn't a material generally thought of in connection with major suspension or driveline components, at least in mass-market terms.

 

Half a century on, we've accumulated quite a bit in terms of advancing knowledge - throughout the world of automotive engineering.

 

As has already been pointed out, the cars were designed for maybe a decade's use, not 30 or 40 years on the road.

 

The 6-pot engine was a late 50s / early 60s development from the Standard small car engine (4 cylinders, 848cc and less than 30 bhp) - conceived in the late 1940s, some 60 years ago, and first produced in the early 1950s.

 

Bear in mind also that both IRS and 6-cylinder engines were innovative in their day, developed on the slenderest of budgets, by an organisation in crisis and with its corporate back against the financial wall. That so many of its cars still survive today might reasonably be called the real Triumph.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

[Jersey Royal]

Guy

 

Taking the wheel and drum off and then undoing 6 nuts is the way to go for greasing the outer UJ but while you have it there why not cut the tie holding the rubber bellow undo the alloy knurled cover pull that half apart and grease the splines while you are at it leaving the other half attached to the diff.

 

I do mine every other year on the 4A or more frequently if I do a high mileage.

 

I do the nuts up pretty lightly, about 15 ft pounds and always replace the nylocks.

 

Cheers

Robin,

 

Thats what i did, but did not take the backing plate off, which meant even with the hub pulled forward i could not grease up, so i undid the uj by diff. As you say in hindsight would be better to remove backing plate. Will give that a go on the other side.

 

So could someone advise me the correct way to torque uo the inner uj to diff, or is just as tight as you can plus a bit more.?

 

Thanks

 

Guy

[stuart]

Robin,

 

Thats what i did, but did not take the backing plate off, which meant even with the hub pulled forward i could not grease up, so i undid the uj by diff. As you say in hindsight would be better to remove backing plate. Will give that a go on the other side.

 

So could someone advise me the correct way to torque uo the inner uj to diff, or is just as tight as you can plus a bit more.?

 

Thanks

 

Guy

Tight without stripping the nylocs!!

Stuart.

[Jersey Royal]

Tight without stripping the nylocs!!

Stuart.

 

Tight as it goes then Stuart.

 

 

Cheers

 

Guy

[Jersey Royal]

Tight as it goes then Stuart.

 

 

Cheers

 

Guy

UPDATE.

 

 

Just tightening up the stud nuts to trailing arms and poo i have one that wont torque one side towards the top and two on the other side.

 

So have ordered required studs coils etc from Revington.

 

 

I have ordered sufficient to do both sides 12 no.

 

Hope this is going to be as easy as Tom and Harry say.

 

 

Cheers

 

Guy

[foster461]

UPDATE.

 

 

Just tightening up the stud nuts to trailing arms and poo i have one that wont torque one side towards the top and two on the other side.

 

So have ordered required studs coils etc from Revington.

 

 

I have ordered sufficient to do both sides 12 no.

 

Hope this is going to be as easy as Tom and Harry say.

 

 

Cheers

 

Guy

 

 

The main problem is keeping the drill perpendicular to the TA and straight as you drill out the hole. This is doable with your trustly Black and Decker if you just have one stud to do and you are careful, and I guess I would personally just fix the one(s) that are obviously stripped and leave the others alone. If you have a bunch to do or plan to do them all now for insurance you could consider taking the TA's to a machine shop and have them do it or make up an alignment jig to guide the drill bit. If you dont have the studs in straight you will never get the hub to fit.

 

Stan

[Jersey Royal]

The main problem is keeping the drill perpendicular to the TA and straight as you drill out the hole. This is doable with your trustly Black and Decker if you just have one stud to do and you are careful, and I guess I would personally just fix the one(s) that are obviously stripped and leave the others alone. If you have a bunch to do or plan to do them all now for insurance you could consider taking the TA's to a machine shop and have them do it or make up an alignment jig to guide the drill bit. If you dont have the studs in straight you will never get the hub to fit.

 

Stan

 

 

Stan

 

Thanks for your comments above,

 

 

Although i will have the parts to do all 12, i am in too minds.

 

The best way would be to take trailing arms off, clean them and send to machine shop, they can put all the helocoiled studs in.

 

Do it myself insitu, depends how easy the first one is to do.

 

Or leave trailing arms in, just do the three, and leave it at that. Bearing in mind i have to take hub off to grease up outward uj, every winter, check them annualy.

 

Am i correct in assuming the helicoils will give a stronger fixing ? would they be torqued up to 16lb /ft as normal. ?

 

 

Cheers

 

Guy

[stuart]

Stan

 

Thanks for your comments above,

 

 

Although i will have the parts to do all 12, i am in too minds.

 

The best way would be to take trailing arms off, clean them and send to machine shop, they can put all the helocoiled studs in.

 

Do it myself insitu, depends how easy the first one is to do.

 

Or leave trailing arms in, just do the three, and leave it at that. Bearing in mind i have to take hub off to grease up outward uj, every winter, check them annualy.

 

Am i correct in assuming the helicoils will give a stronger fixing ? would they be torqued up to 16lb /ft as normal. ?

 

 

Cheers

 

Guy

Guy as you have already had the shafts out and done your greasing I would just do the three that you know are stripped and then next year when you pull them again it will be three less to do! Helicoils are normally stronger than the original fitting but I would still stick to the torque figures that you already have.

Stuart.

[Jersey Royal]

Guy as you have already had the shafts out and done your greasing I would just do the three that you know are stripped and then next year when you pull them again it will be three less to do! Helicoils are normally stronger than the original fitting but I would still stick to the torque figures that you already have.

Stuart.

 

 

Stuart,

 

And another job nearly done.

 

Thanks

Guy

[Jersey Royal]

Hi All,

 

 

I need some mooooore advise please.

 

 

 

My Helicoil Kit has arrived, having never used one before i have a couple of queries.

 

Size of drill bit , the tap has 5/16 times 24 UNF on it

 

Helicoils are 5/16 UNF TIMES 1.5D

 

 

Now according to the table of recommended drill size 5/16 UNF/BSF 8.2mm drill bit

 

or 5/16 UNC/BSW 8.3 mm drill bit

 

 

So i conclude it should be an 8.2mm drill bit, am i correct?

 

Also when i tap out the hole should i use a little oil on the insert?

 

Thanks for your help

 

Regards

 

Guy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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