Yankee TR Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Gentlemen, Can any of you relate to me how and where the Lockheed axles break on the early TR's? They certainly are fragile looking things...do they break near the outer end around the hub? Does anyone have any pictures of these broken parts? I plan on keeping the original rear diff in TS1203LO but I was wondering if the axles could be improved upon...any help would certainly be appreciated. Rick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel Lay Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Hi Rick I gather that if you treat them with 'some' respect they are OK. The one on TS952 had certainly been on the car for a long time - and is still on the car! I am told that no wheelspin starts in first, no going backwards and then slamming it in first (as in trials or driving tests) it should be OK. At least you don't need a 30 ton press to get the hubs apart. I have now got 3 spare halfshafts so this should mean that I will not break one . One very important thing is not to swap the halfshafts round during a rebuild. I believe Revington do uprated lockheed ones. Best of luck - Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Rick they usually break on the inner end where the splines are which makes it a pain to get the remaining piece out!! But as Nigel has said treat them with a bit of respect and you shouldnt have too much problem. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Rick - New shafts are available made from stronger steel and heat treated to last. I remember Peter Wigglesworth who used to work for Moss in London (formerly Cox and Buckles) had some back in 1991 when we discussed the topic. If you check with the usual suppliers, you may get a more recent up-date. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Yankee TR Posted January 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 (edited) Thanks to all... I've heard all of the horror stories but I sort of figured that an "easy throttle" would probably help a bit. Don, Thanks for the tip on the stronger replacements being available...I'm going to explore that soon... Rick Edited January 22, 2007 by Yankee TR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
james christie Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 I experienced two problems with the Lockheed axle on my TR2. (Comm 6884 where are you now ?) The half shaft braking at the inner splines - mentioned above - is well known. Purists who refuse to change to a Girling axle should always carry a spare half shaft in the boot/trunk together with a wire coat hanger to hook out the recalcitrant bit that is left once you have removed the hub. Those with memories of early Goodwood sprints will recall this operation in the paddock on John Wellburns quick black TR2 - before he flipped the car later in the afternoon T'other problem is a fairly persistant leak of grease/ oil through the seal onto the brake shoes. This renders the rear end braking system virtually useless. This together with the well known brake fade of the all-drum brakes TR2 has turned many an enthusiast prematurely grey. james christie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Yankee TR Posted January 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 I experienced two problems with the Lockheed axle on my TR2. (Comm 6884 where are you now ?)The half shaft braking at the inner splines - mentioned above - is well known. Purists who refuse to change to a Girling axle should always carry a spare half shaft in the boot/trunk together with a wire coat hanger to hook out the recalcitrant bit that is left once you have removed the hub. Those with memories of early Goodwood sprints will recall this operation in the paddock on John Wellburns quick black TR2 - before he flipped the car later in the afternoon T'other problem is a fairly persistant leak of grease/ oil through the seal onto the brake shoes. This renders the rear end braking system virtually useless. This together with the well known brake fade of the all-drum brakes TR2 has turned many an enthusiast prematurely grey. james christie James, The gray hair I have already handled....and the drum brakes build character! I wonder if there is a better/improved seal available to correct some of the leakage problems. Perhaps a particular brand of seal? Any comments? Rick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel Lay Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 (edited) Hi Rick - I used the oil seals from Moss (make sure you get the right ones, check axle TS number), polished up the hub well and in 3000 miles touch wood no problems. As far as brakes are concerned in normal HARD road use I have again had no problems. I am using new/old stock shoes, 9" rears are easy as many of the rootes group cars used them on front & rear, 10" are a bit more of a problem but again there are alternatives. The big plus with old stock is that they have sensible lining material on them, not this new eco friendly stuff. The other plus with all drum is that you need far less pedal pressure for the same braking force. As far as grey hair is concerned I have no worry on that score, it went grey years ago, the problem now is hanging on to what is left. Nigel Edited January 26, 2007 by Nigel Lay Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 The reason that you need more pedal travel with front disk brakes is that the pistons in the calipers will move back if you are doing high-speed driving on twisty roads where you don't need to use the brakes. The side to side flexing of the front end suspension causes the rotors to force back the brake linings. Most of this is caused by the stub axles bending. Then when you arrive at the next turn during our drive and you step on the brake pedal, the linings have to be re-set back onto the rotor before there you get the braking action you need. TR racers tap the brake pedal to do this as they are coming into a corner, then when they get to the braking point, they have the brakes when they need them. But this makes them lose seconds on every lap. So TR racing members (in USA at least) have developed new stronger front stub axles to eliminate all these problems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Moltu Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 You can get an anti-knock off kit for the IRS cars (not sure if they have been done for the early TRs) which helps prevent the stub axle flexing & pushing off the pads. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nick Webster Posted February 2, 2007 Report Share Posted February 2, 2007 It has always been my understanding that half shaft breakage and leaking rear oil seals are related. The breakage stems not from acceleration (which is when it occurs) but from going around corners. The culprit is the inadequate ball bearing in the hub. This does not stand up well to sideways forces and when wear occurs the half shaft will flex slightly and ultimately suffer stress breakage. This is especially relevant considering modern tyre side grip performance. The leaking oil seal is your clue that all is not well with the bearing. The ball bearings are difficult to remove from the half shaft and so often just the oil seal will get changed! The significant advance with the "Girling" axle was that it used taper roller bearings. Regards, Nick Webster TS3690 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Yankee TR Posted February 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 It has always been my understanding that half shaft breakage and leaking rear oil seals are related. The breakage stems not from acceleration (which is when it occurs) but from going around corners. The culprit is the inadequate ball bearing in the hub. This does not stand up well to sideways forces and when wear occurs the half shaft will flex slightly and ultimately suffer stress breakage. This is especially relevant considering modern tyre side grip performance. The leaking oil seal is your clue that all is not well with the bearing. The ball bearings are difficult to remove from the half shaft and so often just the oil seal will get changed! The significant advance with the "Girling" axle was that it used taper roller bearings. Regards, Nick Webster TS3690 Nick, I've heard much the same information. I may look for some stronger axles shafts for my TR2 or, if needed, have some new ones made from a stronger steel. And I wonder if new hubs could be machined to accept tapered roller bearings...hmmm. Rick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Saunders Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 Nick, If you fit secondhand halfshafts you should have no trouble as long as you replace with the same side i.e fit a nearside from another axle into your broken nearside, or offside in offside. The logic behind this is that they are identical when new, but after a while you get a level of twist, sometimes visible at the inner end splines. If you continue using one that has run that side, then there seems to be no problem. Change them over and they snap like carrots. If you buy one loose, then sometimes you can spot which way the twist is going by looking along the inner splines. otherwise take a chance, but buy two ! Of course, similarly when rebuilding your axle , make sure nearside half shaft stays on the nearside ! Not sure about oil seal failure, it ruins your brakes, but I dont believe that it affects your halfshaft life. In my experience, looked after, they will go on forever. Certainly I am reasonably certain that my 1955 TR2 is on its original halfshafts after 180,000+ miles. All the best, John M. Saunders Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonlar Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 I always fit oil seals with a load of grease on the seal "cup" side of it, seems to solve any problem. Seals can be tightened slightly by removing the springy bit, find the joint, unscrew the male from female part, snip a bit off the female end and screw back in, pulls the sealing lip in. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richardtr3a Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 What would be the cause of oil seal failure on the Girling axle. This has happened on my nearside too many times to be normal wear and tear. Shall I try custmising my new seal as suggested. Any comments gratefully received. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Hi Richard, I've not got your problem (mine is a TR4A) however these seals are used everywhere and should last a long time. Therefore you have either a mechanical problem that is causing the seal lip to fail or you are not installing the seal correctly. There, that was quite simple wasn't it!!! I have a feeling you would like an answer. After installing the new seal ensure that the lip and the shaft area that is coincident with the seal is oiled. If installed dry the first few revolutiions take the lip off. If the installation is OK then clearly the shaft is at fault. Is there any radial play in the shaft where the shaft engages in the splined hole. This would allow the shaft to rotate eccentricically and thus knock the lip off. If the area of the shaft where the seal lip sits is worn or scuffed then it may be possible to put a sleeve over it for the seal lip to sit on. Be careful when tightening the spring pressure on the seal lip this could (if overdone) increase seal wear. Packing the back of the seal may prove beneficial but do not use a high melting point grease. It needs to melt in order to lubricate. Best of luck - now where did I put those IRS UJ's Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richardtr3a Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Thank you for the answers and I do have some wear and have a sleeve to cover the ridges. I have not fitted it yet and before long I will be out in the garagge to have a go. Can any one assist with any information onthe sleeve installation. It may be best not to customise the seal and just hope that whoever made the seal in Quan Tong province, was concentrating at the time. Thanks , Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Richard - The site for Speedi-sleeve shows how it's done. http://www2.chicago-rawhide.com/PDF/Speedi...llation_50A.pdf The sketch shows a hammer which you tap on the fully closed outer "top hat" which pushes the speedi-sleeve into position. Normally it only has to be driven a short distance along a shaft to be in position. This puts the driving force onto the flange of the speedi-sleeve and hence there is no damage to the very thin walled diameter of the speedi-sleeve. If you are planning to go a long way along a shaft, as for a half-shaft, I assume you will need to use various and increasing lengths of pipe between the hammer and the speedi-sleeve. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonlar Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Richard and Roger, Castrol is the GP grease I generally use, which is a HMP grease, but it lubricates perfectly well even when cold (try it between your fingers), for such things as CV joints where very high pressures are generated, I use the Castrol Moly grease. I think Uncle Pete had leaky seals a couple of years ago, and pumped some grease behind them which addressed some of the problem - how are they doing now Unc.? Also when passing the splines through the seals, use some tape to cover them, otherwise you can damage the seals, where there's only slight wear, usually visible as a polished band around a shaft you can tighten the seals a little which eliminates the problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richardtr3a Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 Thank you for the help. I have the speedi sleeve and was wondering ifit would help to place the sleeve in boiling water and the shaft in the 'fridge. I plan to fix it with a loctite product of some sort. It needs to be warmer before I start all this. hanks Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonlar Posted February 12, 2007 Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 Hi Richard, to get some real heat into it, try the oven of your cooker to heat the sleeve, and freezer for the shaft, I've done a starter ring gear totally successfully using this - and also to crack the wheel bearings (alternating between the oven and water out of the garden hose) to on our Pugs which are interference fit and wouldn't press out. Most ovens will easily get to 240ºC. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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