TR Rob Posted March 14 Report Share Posted March 14 Started car (TR3a) this morning no problem. Went for a run to warm engine up. Got it back in garage and thought I would do a fuel/ air mixture check with Colortune. Took plug out started engine checked colour OK . Turned engine off replaced plug. Came to restart engine and did not start but made a funny sort of electrical springy noise, thought initially starter motor jammed. Put car in gear rocked it and made same noise. Noted all warning lights on when ignition on. Tried again to restart now nothing no warning lights and no funny noise. Wondering if starter solenoid switch has failed ? Was supposed to be out in car this weekend looks like that’s not going to happen. Anyone in Winchester Hampshire area who could help ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted March 14 Report Share Posted March 14 If no warning lights, then check battery voltage, & if ok (>12V) check battery connections. Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR Rob Posted March 14 Author Report Share Posted March 14 Checked battery 12.87v Got in car, turned ignition switch and this time warning lights came on and guages worked ! Pressed starter button and could hear a loud clicking noise from starter solenoid switch … then all dead again Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted March 14 Report Share Posted March 14 All the power to the car is picked off from the top large terminal on the solenoid where the battery connects ( brown wires) , so I would look there first Rob - sounds as though it might be intermittent. Next check the connections on the ammeter as the power feed goes through that. I know the wiring on you car is a bit non-standard - those red and green wires to the solenoid for instance and the two relays on the left. That sort of solenoid usually has a manual push button at the back end, and you can use that to see whether the contacts to the starter are working. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR Rob Posted March 14 Author Report Share Posted March 14 Hi Rob, have tried the rubber button on the back of the solenoid and again completely dead. Have ordered new solenoid switch from TRGB. Will replace as a start point ( no pun intended!) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted March 14 Report Share Posted March 14 You may possibly have two faults Rob. It does sound as though the solenoid is duff, which is why the starter doesn't run, but that doesn't really explain the apparent intermittent loss of all power, as the connections don't rely on the solenoid working - it's just used as a convenient junction point. If it still happens when you have the new solenoid fitted, that could be a bad connection at the ammeter or somewhere downstream to the ignition switch. It could even be the switch itself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
james christie Posted March 14 Report Share Posted March 14 Surely an easy test is to short circuit the terminals with a heavy screwdriver? If the starter turns it confirms the problem is the solenoid. We used to do this with heavy construction machinery which had been sitting outside for sometimes years. Inevitably the solenoid had seized. Did this once on a Cat D8 in the Congo. Once we got it going we sh*t ourselves collectively when a 1m50 angry viper of some kind crawled out from the tracks! james Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted March 14 Report Share Posted March 14 3 minutes ago, james christie said: Surely an easy test is to short circuit the terminals with a heavy screwdriver? An easy test indeed but one fraught with danger James. There is a lot of earthed metalwork near those terminals and one slip with the screwdriver could easily short the battery. There is no fuse protecting things, so a resulting arc could do an awful lot of damage. Not worth the risk in my opinion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR Rob Posted March 14 Author Report Share Posted March 14 Bit of an update….I think you might be right Rob, started checking the wiring horn, lightts, fan nothing worked so checked earth on the battery and it was very slightly loose. I have one of those isolators on the earth and both connections were slightly loose . Anyway tightened them up and the lack of power is now corrected. Next stage as I can’t press starter button and observe the solenoid switch decided to turn ignition on and use the rubber burtton on the back of the solenoid switch… big mistake , there was a flash and a bang and I think a spark of the negative battery terminal . Result lost all power again. Left the car for a few moments while I composed myself, turned ignition on and power is restored to all circuits . I am not touching that bloody solenoid switch again , will replace with TRGB one and hope that solves the problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR Rob Posted March 14 Author Report Share Posted March 14 Just now, TR Rob said: Bit of an update….I think you might be right Rob, started checking the wiring horn, lightts, fan nothing worked so checked earth on the battery and it was very slightly loose. I have one of those isolators on the earth and both connections were slightly loose . Anyway tightened them up and the lack of power is now corrected. Next stage as I can’t press starter button and observe the solenoid switch decided to turn ignition on and use the rubber burtton on the back of the solenoid switch… big mistake , there was a flash and a bang and I think a spark of the negative battery terminal . Result lost all power again. Left the car for a few moments while I composed myself, turned ignition on and power is restored to all circuits . I am not touching that bloody solenoid switch again , will replace with TRGB one and hope that solves the problem. 12 minutes ago, RobH said: An easy test indeed but one fraught with danger James. There is a lot of earthed metalwork near those terminals and one slip with the screwdriver could easily short the battery. There is no fuse protecting things, so a resulting arc could do an awful lot of damage. Not worth the risk in my opinion. You are dead right Rob, just blew myself up see later post !!! 12 minutes ago, RobH said: An easy test indeed but one fraught with danger James. There is a lot of earthed metalwork near those terminals and one slip with the screwdriver could easily short the battery. There is no fuse protecting things, so a resulting arc could do an awful lot of damage. Not worth the risk in my opinion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted March 14 Report Share Posted March 14 6 hours ago, TR Rob said: Bit of an update….I think you might be right Rob, started checking the wiring horn, lightts, fan nothing worked so checked earth on the battery and it was very slightly loose. I have one of those isolators on the earth and both connections were slightly loose . Anyway tightened them up and the lack of power is now corrected. Next stage as I can’t press starter button and observe the solenoid switch decided to turn ignition on and use the rubber burtton on the back of the solenoid switch… big mistake , there was a flash and a bang and I think a spark of the negative battery terminal . Result lost all power again. Left the car for a few moments while I composed myself, turned ignition on and power is restored to all circuits . I am not touching that bloody solenoid switch again , will replace with TRGB one and hope that solves the problem. If the spark was from the -ve battery terminal, then that is where the bad connection is. Take if off, clean the post & the inside of the terminal, then smear with vaseline & replace. Bob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR Rob Posted March 14 Author Report Share Posted March 14 15 minutes ago, Lebro said: If the spark was from the -ve battery terminal, then that is where the bad connection is. Take if off, clean the post & the inside of the terminal, then smear with vaseline & replace. Bob After initial shock I think you are correct spark was from -ve terminal. I had already tightened up the connections and power to all circuits except horn has been restored. Waiting on new solenoid switch from TRGB . Will post result of swapping it out. But hope this will resolve the issue and hopefully horns will work as well. Thanks everyone for advice Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR Rob Posted March 15 Author Report Share Posted March 15 (edited) Quick update, new solenoid switch arrived this am, thank you TRGB, great service. Fitted the new switch and although the odd electrical noise from the switch has now gone all I get is a short clunk from starter motor and engine fails to turn over. Tried putting car in 4th gear and rocking it backwards and forwards and then tried a restart same problem. Also tried tapping end of starter motor with small hammer as thought motor might be jammed ! Looks as though starter motor has failed. Any other suggestions other than replace it ? Picture attached of starter motor in situ. Don’t know its age or providence Edited March 15 by TR Rob Photo added Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rod1883 Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 If you haven't already it might be worth checking all the connections are clean and tight. It does sound like the unit has jammed though Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 Rob, Do you have a "pre-engaged" starter, AKA "Hi-Torque" - it doesn't look like OE equipment. Easy to tell,.t not from the angle of your photo, but the extra wires from the main starter terminal are a clue. A pre-engaged has a second, cylinder on top of (or below) the main motor cylinder, like this, from Rimmer's catalogue: The second cylinder is a servo, that throws the starter pinion at the flywheel gear ring to engage. Only after that has happened will the servo connect the starter motor, so if the servo fails (dull click) will the motor turn. If you have a pair of jump start cables, try connecting the battery to the starter motor terminal directly. This will minimise the risks with a large screwdriver, outlined above! If you get the same dull noise and no start, then the motor and probably the servo are at fault. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 (edited) Powerlite so probably an RAC 102. https://www.powerlite-units.com/high-torque-starter-motors.html The cylindrical thing on the top is another solenoid, which throws the pinion into gear and at full travel 'makes' an internal high-current contact to power the starter itself. There have been instances of the internal contacts failing, the pinion getting damaged and the external link wire failing. I believe Powerlite are good at providing spares and support. edit - Snap! Edited March 15 by RobH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 TR Rob, All we need is another to repeat what RobH and I have said, and we have a Snark! ("What I tell you three times is true!") Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 1 minute ago, john.r.davies said: we have a Snark! As long as it isn't actually a Boojum. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR Rob Posted March 15 Author Report Share Posted March 15 Thanks everyone, now in the process of jacking car up to gain access. Plan is to take starter motor off car and take it over to my local garage workshop for them to ‘test’ Have spoken with TRGB and we have established that it is a Powerlite. Steve at TRGB is not so keen on them and if I need to replace he suggests a WOSP unit. Need to get mine off to find out which one it is, hopefully it will have a ref. no. on it to check against a WOSP unit and as a check count the pinion teeth on the Bendix to ensure it is compatible with flywheel. Anything else I should be aware of ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR Rob Posted March 15 Author Report Share Posted March 15 Just looking at the way the Powerlite is mounted, I think removal of bottom nut/bolt should be relatively OK. The top one looks tricky. Am I correct in that the top fitting is a stud that comes fitted to the starter motor and that I have to just undo the nut. If so is there a technique I should be aware of, and am I right to assume when undone the motor will come out between inner wing and carbs, albeit with air cleaners removed. Any tips gratefully accepted Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 It's tight Rob. Depends on how much clearance you have between the bell-housing and the bulkhead. I could just get a reversed thin spanner in there on my car and move the nut one flat at a time, but yours may be different. I think some people even resort to making an access hole in the transmission tunnel which allows a socket with long extension to fit- perhaps your car already has one since the PO must have fitted the starter in the first place? When replacing the motor on some you can reverse the front plate, so the stud is at the bottom. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 (edited) Before you remove the starter assembly……. Remove the solenoid cover plate, take out the contact disc and clean it and the terminals inside that it makes contact with. Here is a blow by blow ‘how to’ after the sales pics. You can clean it on the car. I have done this job of cleaning the contacts on the car a couple of times and it has fixed a non working starter without the need to remove from car. https://www.sherco-auto.com/starter-solenoid-contacts.html Edited March 15 by BlueTR3A-5EKT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 ...or a UK source : http://www.repairkitsuk.com/kit-details/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR Rob Posted March 15 Author Report Share Posted March 15 Hi Rob.. thanks for removal advice. My car has an all synchro TR4 gearbox which I think has caused engine to be moved forward to the extent that I can’t squeeze a wide belt, fan belt, between the fan extension and the radiator matrix(another problem to be resolved at a later date) But there is an upside in that the nut on the starter motor top stud is about 25mm in front of gearbox/bulkhead and so in theory I should be able to get a spanner on it ….I hope ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trumpy3 Posted March 15 Report Share Posted March 15 I have had to repair a few of these, two for myself and a few for other members and one Toyota. I have found two problems. Burnt contacts and broken wires where the coil windings are soldered the plate that connects them to the solenoid contacts. The broken wires can be first by soldering them back on. The contacts can be replaced as noted in the previous post. Burnt contacts are the most common. I have found the the contact kit that includes the armature is the best,\. The armature is the part that is sometimes called the plunger. It is important that the contacts remain flat in the solenoid to ensure a full contact with the armature. To do this I loosely assemble the contacts, insert the armature and place a suitable sized spacer (piece of wood, nut, etc) on top of the solenoid and fit the solenoid cover so that it holds the armature down firm on the contacts. Then tighten the contact mounting nuts. Remove the spacer and refit the cover. As a matter of interest, the starters we use here do not have a stud for mounting. It uses two nut and bolts. I make up a small metal tag that is clamped under the gearbox mounting bolt immediately above the top starter mount and extends down and under this top starter mount. I then tack (weld) this to the starter mounting nut. This keeps the nut in place when removing the starter. Of course this has to be done with the gearbox removed. It is matter of taking the opportunity when and if you remove the gearbox. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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