Scuttle modification advice please

[KiwiTR6]

Afternoon all.

I have of recent times posted about the excessive bonnet gap on my 6 and other owners here have kindly confirmed that the bonnet on my car is the standard width.

I have now made the decision to fix this issue and will be meeting with a panel beater some time this week if the weather clears.  The plan is to remove the guards and cut a very narrow wedge out of the top of the scuttle to align the vertical face with the guard inner and create the correct gap for the bonnet.  The attached image shows what will be the new edge line on the passenger's side.  I will get him to do the same on the driver's side although it's not as bad and I could probably get away with it.  However, the upper scuttle will need to be repainted down into the front drain channel and down behind the guards so i may as well do it as well.

A few questions for those more familiar with this type of work than me:

If I remove the windshield surround to achieve a decent paint job should I remove the screen first?  I know it's going to be difficult to budge so this would seem to be the best course of action.

The surround lower weather strip on this car appears to be too short, I'm not sure if that is the length from the supplier or if the PO cut it down.  What is the correct end point (image of the driver's side end - which is the worst) and how should the ends be finished?

I currently have a credit with Rimmer's from some time back.  If I use it to source a new strip will it be the same as that supplied by all the other suppliers and, more importantly, will it be long enough?

Gavin

 

[Mike C]

Just one comment. Last time I had a windscreen removed for car painting it had to be scrapped- the painter said it couldn't be taken out and then  reused. This meant new glass, rubber and trim strip.

[PodOne]

Can't see why the screen would need to be scrapped just a new rubbers from Moss. the Rimmers ones at least for me didn't.

Another easier and cheaper option would be to cut and shut the bonnet given the small amount required and pull the front wings in towards the lights you might find you only have then to cut the top 1/3 of the bonnet. I did this to get a better fit against the scuttle to the top corners of the bonnet to achieve what you already have.

Cutting the scuttle risks weakening the tub and potentially rust as its not an easy area to acsess latter. Also from the pic it looks like the wing is held off by a spacer/washer between it and the scuttle? In which case even less to potentialy cut.

Personally if it bothers you I'd attack the bonnet as its a much easier task and use lead as filler so the resulting paint doesn't crack as the bonnet is closed,

Stuart might pop along and offer a better and easier fix!

Andy

[RogerH]

Hi Gavin,

the first concern I have is - if you trim the scuttle edge back towards the screen to allow the wing to move inwards the wing would then be out of

alignment with the door  (which at the moment looks good.

I would not trim the scuttle.

If you build up the bonnet edge with lead (Pb) then it may become quite heavy - although it looks as if you are after the odd mm or so.

Have you considered bonding an Aluminium/steel  strip along the bonnet edge to build it up.

 

The wind screen frame will come out - the two outside spigots may be seized in and take some wiggling.  Leave the glass in situ.

The lower rubber should go to the edge and is usually a good fit.

Roger

[PodOne]

Hi Roger 

I suspect you could adjust the door easy enough to keep the alignment even if you had to elongate the hinge holes. Problem is then it might then affect the rear B post gap and the bottom of the front wing?

Andy

[stuart]

From what I can see it does indeed look like the wing is being held out by washers, first thing I would do is ditch them and see what a difference that makes with the wing bolted tight to the scuttle before you go any further, the door can be brought in at the same time though that top bit of the door to scuttle edge often needs leading to get a nice gap. I have leaded bonnets to get a better fit to the wing and wing edges to get a nice fit to bonnets but with wings thats usually with repro ones that dont have a crisp fold on the top

Yes the lower screen rubber should go to the end flush with the "A" post edge. The screen and frame should come out in one piece but its a fair weight so you might want to take the glass out, of course you can re-use the glass if its servicable, FWIW the only decent screen rubber is a Moss one thats a given.

 

Edited January 28 by stuart

[KiwiTR6]

6 hours ago, stuart said:

From what I can see it does indeed look like the wing is being held out by washers, first thing I would do is ditch them and see what a difference that makes with the wing bolted tight to the scuttle before you go any further, the door can be brought in at the same time though that top bit of the door to scuttle edge often needs leading to get a nice gap. I have leaded bonnets to get a better fit to the wing and wing edges to get a nice fit to bonnets but with wings thats usually with repro ones that dont have a crisp fold on the top

Yes the lower screen rubber should go to the end flush with the "A" post edge. The screen and frame should come out in one piece but its a fair weight so you might want to take the glass out, of course you can re-use the glass if its servicable, FWIW the only decent screen rubber is a Moss one thats a given.

Thanks for the very helpful comments Stuart.  On rechecking the driver's side, I can get away with just removing the spacer washers from the wing as you suggest - the mating surfaces are so close to parallel it doesn't matter.  The passenger's side is the tricky one.  As you can see there is currently a 10mm bonnet gap but if I simply remove the spacing washers the wing will come in some but leave a very noticeable tapered gap.  If I reshape the top edge of the scuttle back to the screen base I can reduce the gap by 4-5mm which will then look a lot more presentable.  

Re the comments that I should reshape the bonnet - It is a brand new part from Heritage, not a single imperfection anywhere and the paint is perfect so there's no way I'm messing with that.  A small mod to the scuttle won't affect the structural integrity of the car and will be much easier to carry out and repaint at lower risk of ruining the overall appearance of the car (in my view anyway).

Stuart, what does the bolt behind the door (circled in the image) do?

 

[KiwiTR6]

Just found this image on a local parts suppliers site whilst checking if they have the Moss seal rubber (which they do).  So the driver's side gap if I remove the spacer washer will end up exactly the same as this car (circled) so no other work required there.

[PodOne]

Hi Gavin

The bolt goes into the windscreen frame bracket.

Just a thought I wonder if the heritage bonnets are made on the original tooling?

Andy

[Malbaby]

I would be asking myself why has the gap problem occurred.

Probable scenario.....The car's front been damaged as the result of a collison, and the front of the body been moved out of correct alignment towards the RHS.

Is the scuttle/fender panel gap on the other side perfect.

Look at where the front of the body is bolted to the chassis....Does that look correct.

Bottom line...investigate further before attacking the scuttle panel edge, or removing the windsceen frame.

 

[KiwiTR6]

Hi Andy

Thanks for the clarification re the bolt.  I'd figured that's what it was not long after posting that comment and then checking the Moss parts diagram for the rubber seal.

I believe the bonnet and other parts are made with the original tooling, but I may be wrong.  I was told by the PO that the bonnet was narrower than the original hence the gaps, however measurements given by other forum members shows it to be exactly the same as the original.  I'm not sure why there is an issue with the scuttle, perhaps it's also a pattern part fitted and painted without first fitting the wings (guards over here) to check tolerances.  Once it was all painted and assembled the issue then became obvious and spinning a story was the best way to explain it.  We'll never know and that's how I purchased it - with eyes wide open!

Edited January 28 by KiwiTR6
grammar

[Malbaby]

I wonder if the PO is telling you the whole "story".

[KiwiTR6]

14 minutes ago, Malbaby said:

I would be asking myself why has the gap problem occurred.

Probable scenario.....The car's front been damaged as the result of a collison, and the front of the body been moved out of correct alignment towards the RHS.

Is the scuttle/fender panel gap on the other side perfect.

Look at where the front of the body is bolted to the chassis....Does that look correct.

Bottom line...investigate further before attacking the scuttle panel edge, or removing the windsceen frame.

 

I don't think so.  I've been under the car a multitude of times (on a 2-post hoist) and not seen any evidence of impact damage repair.

However, a little more research of the notes given to me by the PO has pretty much confirmed my suspicion - the scuttle has indeed been replaced with a pattern part.

 

[RogerH]

Hi Gavin,

have you compared the scuttle width measurement with other TR's?

 

Roger

[stuart]

I wonder where the scuttle panel came from as theyve not been available for a lot of years, even back when Heritage were still making shells the panels werent a particularly good fit Also as you can see from my above pictures the wing top line on repro panels wasnt very good and needed leading to correct which as you have a pair of replacements may well contribute to the problem.

Stuart.

Edited January 29 by stuart

[Mk2 Chopper]

What is the gap like at the front of the wing/ bonnet, closer or the same? I was just thinking if you take a sliver out of the scuttle, can you move the door in enough on its hinges and does the front of the wing need to go closer? 

Gareth

[Malbaby]

22 hours ago, KiwiTR6 said:

I don't think so.  I've been under the car a multitude of times (on a 2-post hoist) and not seen any evidence of impact damage repair.

However, a little more research of the notes given to me by the PO has pretty much confirmed my suspicion - the scuttle has indeed been replaced with a pattern part.

 

OK.....Unusual for the scuttle panel to be replaced in it's intirety, and for the pressing to be out of correct shape.

Have you "eyeballed" the sides of the car, or other methods to confirm that the front of the body is definitely centered?

How do all the door/fender/sill gaps look?

Have you removed the fender to inspect the side of the scuttle and the inner fender attachment alignment?

[KiwiTR6]

Stuart, from your photos I'd say the parts are definitely not as sharp on the folds as you say.  If I were doing a restoration then it would be sensible to correct this as you do.  Lovely work, we don't see lead used very often these days.

Roger, no I haven't asked for measurements but that's academic anyway.  Subject to confirmation from my tradesman, correcting this one corner will enable me to achieve the desired outcome.

Gareth, the gaps are equally wide the full length of the bonnet both sides as the wings have been spaced out with washers to give a balanced look.

Malbaby, the rest of the car is excellent with nice door gaps both sides.  If I were to be picky, the boot lid could do with a little work but it doesn't hit you in the  eyes as the bonnet does.  I'll remove the fender/wing once I visited my tradesman.

 

[Mk2 Chopper]

Looking forward to seeing an update on the outcome when it's finished. 

Gareth

[KiwiTR6]

Will do....

[Michaeltr6]

I comThe scuttle panel on my first tr6, a 1972,car, was to big and didn't realy fit properly,, i was at a petrol station filling up the car, when a man came over and looked at the car and ssid he hsd worked at the factory st speke, liverpool,, id made a comment (complaint) about the fit of the scuttle panel, and he said that they could all be different sizes. Because when they were being stamped out some operators would double or triple up on the metal going in to the press at the same time, the result would be a panel a little bit bigger, that was made to fit the body shell when it was being assembled before welding,, he confirmed my opinion that the scuttle had been fitted of centre, and said there had been quite a few produced, befor the problem was rectified, 

 

 

[PodOne]

Interesting I wonder if that applied to other panels? If so finding an original car with even gaps is less of a possibility if at all.

Andy

[Michaeltr6]

Iv never seen 2 cars with the same gaps,, as an appearance panel beater my then boss, said the spair panels you buy from the dealer ships were the parts that wernt good enough to youse on the production line, 

[stuart]

1 minute ago, Michaeltr6 said:

Iv never seen 2 cars with the same gaps,, as an appearance panel beater my then boss, said the spair panels you buy from the dealer ships were the parts that wernt good enough to youse on the production line, 

Correct, confirmed by ex employees from the factory, all the panels that didnt fit straight away were put to one side and then sent out to the dealer network as spares. Picture below is the very last TR6 off the line and look at the door fit!

Stuart.

 

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

39 minutes ago, stuart said:

Correct, confirmed by ex employees from the factory, all the panels that didnt fit straight away were put to one side and then sent out to the dealer network as spares. Picture below is the very last TR6 off the line and look at the door fit!

Stuart.

 

I can confirm that statement from a parts sales view.  
We often received panels with the word “spares” chalked or crayoned on them direct from the factory parts supply network.  The stuff was often not to spec either.  We have recently fitted a NOS TR3A inner front wing, by part number, to notice it was in fact assembled with the overider reinforcing plate in the correct place for a Beta, not a lot of use on a 3A!   Had to drill the plate off and re position.