3a engine figure of 8 gaskets

[RogerH]

I'll try and post a pic tomorrow of my crazy tool

 

Roger

[Motorsport Mickey]

Hi John, 

Had my son send some photos of the liner removal tool on line.

 

The alloy plugs are made to fit inside the liner skirt about -10 thou on the shoulder dia, and the outside dia about -10 thou down on the block dia so it will pull through. There is a steel dia behind it to strengthen the alloy. They slide onto a 1/2” threaded bar with nuts at the bottom. There are 2 alloy plugs shown for different dia liners. At the top there is a lump of channel which has a couple of slots machined in which allows it to be fitted over head studs and jiggled about. Then Feed the threaded bar through the channel and down the liner from the top of the block, fit the alloy plug onto the threaded bar with the steel support piece behind and loosely fit into the liner skirt with a nut run up behind. Then go back on top and tighten up a nut onto the channel pulling the liner up out of the block. If it’s tight leave the pressure on the nut and go underneath and smack the end of the threaded bar a couple of times. You’ll  hear the seal break on the liner, it sounds different, then wind the liner up. You can wiggle the liner out when it’s up a couple of inches, but careful with skirt they are brittle.

Mick Richards

Edited August 17, 2023 by Motorsport Mickey

[Z320]

Sorry John,

what is your sealing problem?

You told before it is always on a different part of the gasket?

Coolant runs out between head and engine?

Ciao, Marco 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Z320

[Wsl]

Hi Marco

on this occasion the failure occurred at the rear of No4 cylinder fire ring, whilst the gasket was not damaged, the gases appeared to be leaking into the water jacket slightly underneath the fire ring, between the gasket and liner. The decision has been made now to remove the liners and fit fo8 gaskets.

I have looked at Mick’s liner removal device, and will be making one up in a few days.

regards John

[Wsl]

Hi Mick

Thanks for the photos, I will be making something similar. But need the use of a lathe (which I don’t have)..Need to call in some favours from mates.

keep you posted John

[RogerH]

Hi John,

I assume that after (apprx 500 miles)  you did retorque the head - slacken each head nut a full turn then retorque.

 

Roger

[Z320]

Hi John,

I don’t know how you assembled the engine,

but leaks also can be caused by this:

fitting the head the way descriped at the workshop manual (sliding over the 10 head bolts) can cause you problems.

The threads work like files and some crud / oil coal can fall out on top of the gasket.

You see that, if you know, but not the last millimeters.

My father did his apprenticeship on Daimler trucks.

His advice was to lay the gasket and head on the block, get 2 bolts in line and than fit them all.

Of cause my father’s son is much more intelligent and worked according the manual - my leak was at cylinder 1, front right.

ciao, Marco 

[Z320]

The tool you can make simple with a hacksaw and a rasp,

I dive in my scrap boxes and hopefully I can show you.

[Z320]

Sorry, gone.

I cut a piece of U40/20 steel off, about 80 mm long.

Diagonal this is 90 mm.

Mark the center and make a 86 mm circle (or what ever bore you have) and rasp a little centering offset on all a edges.

Drill it in the center, 15 minutes, ready.

If the filing threads are not your problem.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Z320

[Motorsport Mickey]

2 hours ago, RogerH said:

Hi John,

I assume that after (apprx 500 miles)  you did retorque the head - slacken each head nut a full turn then retorque.

 

Roger

Hi Roger,

I think you misspoke there, I know you only slackened off the nuts on yours by 1 flat.

Mick Richards.

[RogerH]

Hi Mick,

is it one flat or one turn?

 

Roger

 

 

[Rod1883]

I've always thought it was, and used, one flat - just enough to break the 'lock' before re-torqueing

[RogerH]

Thanks Rod

 

Roger

[Motorsport Mickey]

As Rod says 1 flat just takes the stiction ( sticking friction) off the fastening so you can retighten.

Mick Richards

[Wsl]

Hi Mick

A bit of a quiet period for a few days. Pistons coming out this morning, I am now waiting for some bits to arrive in order to make my liner puller, the aluminium billet, and some HT M24 threaded rod, hopefully next week.

One thought about the the retorque after 500 miles; how did they do this at the factory when the cars were new? Or did they even bother. 

One more question; aft all this work, what gasket to fit? Very tempted by Daryl’s £120 gasket if it’s going to save me future aggro.

Hi Z320.

Interesting, but I think the material for the die puller should really be aluminium to avoid damaging the bottom of the skirt, and should ‘lathed’ to 87mm with -10/-10 thou step for accuracy.

Keep the ideas coming please.

John

 

l

[Z320]

No problem, I just wanted to show how simple tools can be and work anyway (for me)

[ianc]

I believe that the dealers handled re-torquing of the head and any other minor adjustments at the first service.

Ian Cornish

[RogerH]

The basic copper laminate head gasket of the correct size keeps most owners happy.

 

Roger

[Motorsport Mickey]

My colleagues above are on the mark.

As Ian points out originally a retorque was carried out at the dealer at 1000 miles from memory,... ahh why do we then say now we retorque by 500 miles (and I do mine at 200) I hear you tempted to ask ? 

Because the factory had it easy, they had freshly made components that were machined square in 2 planes and parallel and round along their lengths where was demanded. Whereas we have old stressed blocks where unless you have had the liner axis trued to the bores the liners point in different directions. The block surface has likely lifted or spread, and most of the other components are now mere shadows of what they once were. So unless you are into racing and want to "blueprint" your engine (I've done a few) returning all dimensions back to what it was made as 50 plus years ago...we have to molly coddle the engine build a little.
 

In case the block and head surfaces and fit are a little marginal we reduce the retorque of the head down to low mileage figures, if it can manage a couple of hundred miles we can retorque the head and "chase" the clamping force, returning it to allowable figures with the retorque. I retorque my road engines every couple of years, if the gasket doesn't need it nothing is hurt, indeed after about 2 retorques as far as I can judge the gasket doesn't compress any further, but I still check the torque every 2 years...it just makes sense...well to me.

As for the head gasket the Payen copper/asbestos/copper head gasket at 86mm will accept a 87mm piston set and was the industry standard for good head gaskets. It still works well and has the widest compression range of gaskets we use. As Roger says if I was in your position I'd use it.

Mick Richards

Edited August 19, 2023 by Motorsport Mickey

[Wsl]

Thanks Mick

I am, understandably, a little concerned that the quality of the modern copper laminate gaskets are, like a lot of modern replacement parts for these old cars, are not what they used to be. Sad, but true.

John

[Wsl]

Hi Mick

Please see attached photos of my liner remover, and of the liners as removed. The liners were bought new from Racetorations fitted in 1997 they are made by Mahl which I believe were OEM. They have covered 15,000 miles; they came out, and were refitted about 7 years ago, when the block was skimmed. There is a complete absence of rust or sludge, on the liners or inside the block, and look almost as good as new. This is a testament to the use of Ford Superplus coolant (100% mix). 

I have an engineers flat bed, and will be taking the required amount off the liners by hand, with various grades of wet, and dry over the coming weeks. Still not decided on the head gasket. Copper composite new old stock would be favourite.

Thank you for all you help and suggestions guys, most appreciated.

John Roberts

[Lebro]

Excellent job, well done (very professional)

Bob

[Motorsport Mickey]

Those liners are pretty good ! As you say hardly any corrosion or sludge.

The first shot of their removal gives you clues, look at No 2 liner. I can't see No 1  height (is that a 1 ?)  but beware that area.

The inner liners (second liner in from each end) can have problems, they have a liner inside and a "crutch " liner outside. I call it a crutch liner because it's underneath the end of the cylinder head at either end. That means the head cannot bend and retain a good clamping force on the 2nd inner liners being supported by another inner liner and an extreme end liner. That can give a reduced clamping force something like this 4.4.3.4 the liner marked 3 cannot have the same clamp because the head cannot be "deflected" within the short distance between the liners. On the other hand, number 4 liner, which runs hottest and often suffers from block deck lift around the short studs at the end, I've had engines running with a 2 thou liner height there, and 4 thou on the rest of inner liners and still retained a good gasket seal. The end of the head WILL bend even thou it's 3" thick (105lbs ft sez so) and compresses the copper composite gasket a little more, enough to approximate the same clamp pressures as the other higher liners.

I would clean the surfaces on liners and block liner shoulders and using the new copper Fo8 gaskets and a clean old head gasket pull the liners down with 105 lbs to set the liners and then remove the head and gasket and retain liners with washers where siamesed OO OO (about 40lbs not critical) and measure the liners protrusion with 2 measures per liner down either side down the length of the block, marking the dimensions on the liner tops. Then decide on the way forward, and what materials need moving.

Micky 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Motorsport Mickey

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

6 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Those liners are pretty good ! As you say hardly any corrosion or sludge.

The first shot of their removal gives you clues, look at No 2 liner. I can't see No 1 or No 3 liner heights but beware that area.

The inner liners (second liner in from each end)can have problems, they have a liner inside and a "crutch " liner outside. I call it a crutch liner because it's underneath the end of the cylinder head at either end. That means the head cannot bend and retain a good clamping force on the 2nd inner liners being supported by another inner liner and an extreme end liner. That can give a reduced clamping force something like this 4.4.3.4 the liner marked 3 cannot have the same clamp because the head cannot be "deflected" within the short distance between the liners. On the other hand, number 4 liner, which runs hottest and often suffers from block deck lift around the short studs at the end, I've had engines running with a 2 thou liner height there, and 4 thou on the rest of inner liners and still retained a good gasket seal. The end of the head WILL bend even thou it's 3" thick (105lbs ft sez so) and compresses the copper composite gasket a little more, enough to approximate the same clamp pressures as the other higher liners.

I would clean the surfaces on liners and block liner shoulders and using the new copper Fo8 gaskets and a clean old head gasket pull the liners down with 105 lbs to set the liners and then remove the head and retain with washers where siamesed OO OO (about 40lbs not critical) and measure the liners protrusion with 2 measures per liner down either side down the length of the block, marking the dimensions on the liner tops. Then decide on the way forward, and what materials need moving.

Micky 

+1.   Do not get excited with wet-n-dry until you have done as Mick suggests.   

[Z320]

Hi John, what a lovely tool!

With "Mahl" you mean "Mahle" (pistons) / Germany.

Their factory at Fellbach is next town to me, their pistons / linders set is sold out since years.

My neighbor Dietmar works there at the distribution - but he was not able to do anything for me.

Just for others information who possible wish to buy a set - no way.

Ciao, Marco