Hand-made Bespoke Panels

[boxofbits]

Hi all

I know when I rebuilt my TR4a many of the panels simply did not fit for various reasons. It may have improved since, but this issue is certainly not confined to Triumph TR in particular. 
 

Not TR related but whilst rebuilding my ex Caffyns Morris service van, I have experienced some dreadful panels along the way. However, one enthusiast, Alex Wills, restorer and panel maker is reproducing panels which are ‘spot-on’, and not from a factory but hand-made from his home workshop in Dorset.

Below is an example of his outer under sill ( Morris van but saloons have them), and the reproduction in terms of original detail and dimension is a sight to behold.

Notice the generic reproduction has no curve to follow the floor line, and more importantly no drain wells and one missing flute, so the water just sits atop the panel. If you’re struggling with a particular TR panel Alex Wills may be able to help.

Kevin

 

[Hamish]

The difference is amazing how can the repros get away with it. It’s nothing like it should be. 

[boxofbits]

2 hours ago, Hamish said:

The difference is amazing how can the repros get away with it. It’s nothing like it should be. 

Hi Hamish

I believe there’s only one primary panel maker for these, and I suppose that’s what happens without competition. It will fit, but obviously the straight bend intersects the curve of the sill, and it lacks detail like the drainage troughs.
 

Alex told me his tooling was about £500 plus time. He’s also made original pattern sill box sections and floor pans, as well as a reproduction 2mm chassis which is absolutely spot on. 

I’m not sure now what the worst panels are on the TR range, but when I rebuilt my 4a the front wings, inner wings, rear deck and rear valence were all poorly made.

Kevin

[TR4Tony VC]

Hi all

With panels it’s surprising what the cost of the tooling needed to press in shapes are curves is - and the man hours to manually use those bits of tooling to make a panel exactly. This is what hand made panels are expensive.

The main panel manufacturers don’t operate this way and they are (usually) compromising fit, original appearance in order to get a single press with minimal manual work … and that’s why some double or complex curved panels for our cars are poor.

I have had batches of rear valances, outer sills, aluminium bonnet skins, door frames and now aluminium roof panels made (allWith various bits of tooling and jigs) and there is a huge amount of effort and £££’s in them and more importantly a decreasing number of skilful people out there to do this sort of thing. Most things are possible but it’s a question of cost and willingness to pay. 

Regards

Tony

[Z320]

Great skills!

I‘m afraid I can’t learn this from watching Youtube 

[boxofbits]

17 hours ago, TR4Tony VC said:

Hi all

With panels it’s surprising what the cost of the tooling needed to press in shapes are curves is - and the man hours to manually use those bits of tooling to make a panel exactly. This is what hand made panels are expensive.

The main panel manufacturers don’t operate this way and they are (usually) compromising fit, original appearance in order to get a single press with minimal manual work … and that’s why some double or complex curved panels for our cars are poor.

I have had batches of rear valances, outer sills, aluminium bonnet skins, door frames and now aluminium roof panels made (allWith various bits of tooling and jigs) and there is a huge amount of effort and £££’s in them and more importantly a decreasing number of skilful people out there to do this sort of thing. Most things are possible but it’s a question of cost and willingness to pay. 

Regards

Tony

….cost and willingness are salient points, but depends which side of the fence you’re on too. For a customer who might pick up a panel for £20.00 it’s a bargain but it might cost another £40 in time from a restorer’s point of view, and a lot of hassle to get it to fit.
 

The above panels in question cost me £80 for the pair including post and packing. As a friend I know Alex only started on this project about 3 months ago, and has already produced the tooling. Some of it ain’t pretty, but functional! The generic panel which does the rounds is £17.30 plus postage, so would be fair to quote about £35 each.

I know Stuart once said that the TR4 front wing only has a curve in one plane and not the other, suggesting a single, or certainly cheaper pressing process? Below is the first tool he made to press the flutes! No expense spared

Kevin

[boxofbits]

10 hours ago, Z320 said:

Great skills!

I‘m afraid I can’t learn this from watching Youtube 

It would be nice to Marco!

[Z320]

I will try to make a gearbox cover from sheet metal, starting in about 6 weeks with warmer temperatures.

Pete inspired me to do this, he made one suitable for his TR4A, hopefully I don’t fail with this project…..

[Motorsport Mickey]

28 minutes ago, Z320 said:

I will try to make a gearbox cover from sheet metal, starting in about 6 weeks with warmer temperatures.

Pete inspired me to do this, he made one suitable for his TR4A, hopefully I don’t fail with this project…..

Yeah but he started from a steel Tr3 steel cover which is 80% of the job.

Mick Richards 

[boxofbits]

26 minutes ago, Z320 said:

I will try to make a gearbox cover from sheet metal, starting in about 6 weeks with warmer temperatures.

Pete inspired me to do this, he made one suitable for his TR4A, hopefully I don’t fail with this project…..

Having seen your mechanical and machining skills I would think it would be well within your capabilities Marco.

I assume you’d use 20swg steel, as 18 swg is so much more difficult to bend?

My only worry with a steel tunnel cover would be rattling or vibration. I know they used moulded hardboard at the factory and I wonder why?

Kevin

[Motorsport Mickey]

TR3 is 18 gauge, and BFG cut, moulded reshaped and rewelded it, a smashing job in my estimation.

Mick Richards

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

C&B used to pay as much to a body panel finisher to dress and shape the flanges of their fully pressed front and rear TR4/5 wing skins as the full panel pressing cost.       I was castigated for spending so much on a finished panel, that I was attempting to make more saleable, rightly too as the moaners continued to compare them to original dual strike factory panels and telling us they were dreadful.   To get them to that original pressing ‘quality’ I investigated and discovered it was a financial step beyond what we considered to be beyond acceptable by the market, at that time.  Probably not so now.  The front wing then at £100 was fine but at £250 was unsaleable.

I said, “simple, we discontinue them and the whiners can get them made by hand”.  I was overruled as a panel that sort of fitted was better than no panel at all.

That was in fact a tactic we had previously used for TR2/3 rear wings, which were a challenge to fit.  The market moaned loudly that nothing, even vaguely the right shapes was available.    We reintroduced them saying…”but you said they were dreadful….”  They said…”we have cars that are otherwise scrap and we need a wing panel.”

This is a difficult area to work in.    

Market demand is like a taxi cab in the rain, just not there; if the availability, price and quality are not correct 

Edited February 12, 2023 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[Z320]

Hi, 

I will use standard sheet steel 0.7 mm. Bended and molded this will be stiff enough.

At least as much as plastic or hardboard.

For noise reduction a friend supports me with alubutyl mats, if needed.

Ciao, Marco 

[Ian Vincent]

I’m sure you will succeed Marco.  I had to manufacture a rear 3/4 panel for my TR3a because the existing one was like a piece of lace. I got there in the end and it was good practice in welding thin steel. 

Rgds Ian

[boxofbits]

16 hours ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

C&B used to pay as much to a body panel finisher to dress and shape the flanges of their fully pressed front and rear TR4/5 wing skins as the full panel pressing cost.       I was castigated for spending so much on a finished panel, that I was attempting to make more saleable, rightly too as the moaners continued to compare them to original dual strike factory panels and telling us they were dreadful.   To get them to that original pressing ‘quality’ I investigated and discovered it was a financial step beyond what we considered to be beyond acceptable by the market, at that time.  Probably not so now.  The front wing then at £100 was fine but at £250 was unsaleable.

I said, “simple, we discontinue them and the whiners can get them made by hand”.  I was overruled as a panel that sort of fitted was better than no panel at all.

That was in fact a tactic we had previously used for TR2/3 rear wings, which were a challenge to fit.  The market moaned loudly that nothing, even vaguely the right shapes was available.    We reintroduced them saying…”but you said they were dreadful….”  They said…”we have cars that are otherwise scrap and we need a wing panel.”

This is a difficult area to work in.    

I remember using Cox & Buckles panels back in around 1989 and they were dreadful then! They’ve improved immeasurably since, especially with the BMH range.

But there still remains a trade-off between what a restorer charges to make a poor repro fit, and a better pressing, and it will probably cost more in labour, so there is a good case for your efforts for instance in trying to improve the panel.

If, for example, I took the reproduction undersill along with a bunch of other panels to a restorer it could quite easily seriously impact the cost of the finished job, and aesthetically never look as good. 

Kevin