ed_h Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 5 hours ago, Bfg said: I'd attribute my learning to colleagues and direct experience more than the educational system. That mostly just helped open the doors to get me in, whereby I could benefit from experience. Yes, isn't that the way it goes. A degree is just something that tells prospective employers that you might have potential to become a useful contributor. The real education comes from doing. Thanks for the bio. I thought you were probably working from some kind of experience. Ed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted July 5, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 3 hours ago, Charlie D said: Take the Burlington Arrow plans for example. In less than a year there were half a dozen other people doing something similar. Charlie. I step forward and say "yep, I was one of those who drew inspiration from the first and perhaps the best" No plagiarism though, just the concept of self build plans (an extension of the assembly manual we already had) ..together with a price list whereby the customer could buy as much or as little as they wanted, at any time. Thank you. Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted July 5, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 (edited) Yesterday I was working on the boat while the poly-tunnel was closed up in the sunshine to accelerate the resin's curing. Today I'm back here to see how things pan out . . . ^ starting off with removing the hardboard formers, used to make the panel's inside flanges. The little white piles of dust are from drilling indexing / locating holes. And then things started to happen . . . ^ the lid's box section T-beam is being bonded to the fibreglass windscreen and backlight cap rails. I used GRP filler paste for that and of course weighted the lid, still in it's mould, down. Then I had lunch. By which time I decided to get straight on and release the mould off the lid moulding . . . ^ starting in the middle (the flattest part of the shape) I prised the edge of the mould up and slipped in a first thin batten of wood. Working from that to the side I slipped in a long thin batten, and further worked that towards the lid's gutter. Pushing that in (over the stiffer curved shape over the doors) released the gutter, and so I then managed to slip in a thin piece of wood in along the front and worked that to the centreline. Over to the other side, I started again at the back and inserted a batten along that side working my way forward. ^ Then with all the edge released, the mould was easily lifted off. ^ the flatter part of these side panels is just a layer of surfacing tissue and one layer of 300g/m chopped strand mat, so it's very thin and nicely translucent (bright inside the car). It is after all just to keep the rain off my bald patch ! Heavy rain will be like dropping onto a drum though. So finally having a roof, what did I do next ? I chopped it up . . . ^ Starting with a hacksaw (front and rear edges) from the inside gave me cut lines to align the masking tape to, so that I could use a powered jig-saw. ^ Btw., there are blades for cutting grp ; without teeth, but with an abrasive edge which cuts in both up and down strokes, with minimal chipping to either face. After a little cleaning up of the sawn edges I had a look-see . . . The T-bar, although just 4" x 1" in section, looks bigger than I'd expected. It's got a job to do, so I'll live with it. Hopefully it'll blend in a little better when the edges are softened and it's painted. Being along the centreline of the car, inbetween the sun visor brackets it ought not present headroom issues. ^ just the one side panel fitted (passenger seat covered) ought to further reduce drafts and road noise, and then (photo 2 ^) a quick look to see how the panel(s) might be carried on a boot rack (nb., this panel is presently without its front and rear fixing rails & sealing flanges, so the final item will not sit so neatly). These lids would also fit inside the boot ..but I'd have to alter its stay if I wanted to strap it up to the underside boot frame. The photo clearly illustrates why the original (one piece, full size / width) panel is nigh on impossible to carry ..when fitted not in place. And so there we are for today. Again useful progress in the right direct. I'm off to the TSSC club meeting at the Sorrel horse now, so that's it for today. Bidding you a good evening, Pete Edited July 8, 2022 by Bfg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mk2 Chopper Posted July 5, 2022 Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 It looks awesome, can't believe you then cut it up . I've forgotten, is there plans to paint the roof? Gareth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted July 5, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2022 it could have been worse ..if it had been someone-else's hardtop ! The plan is to paint the T-bar, the rain gutters and the front n' rear edges opaque, but then to have most of the lift-off lids translucent. I have to investigate the what and wherefore of semi-translucent primers onto the GRP, but it may be that I can use a semi-translucent paint on those panels (ie., a candy colour effect, whereby the base colour shows through another top coat in different lights) ..so this Surrey-top-lid will look one colour from the outside but will still allow plenty of light through, for a lighter, more airy interior. Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mk2 Chopper Posted July 6, 2022 Report Share Posted July 6, 2022 How will you join or seal the removable panels to the T bar when they are fitted? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted July 6, 2022 Report Share Posted July 6, 2022 10 hours ago, Bfg said: it could have been worse ..if it had been someone-else's hardtop ! The plan is to paint the T-bar, the rain gutters and the front n' rear edges opaque, but then to have most of the lift-off lids translucent. I have to investigate the what and wherefore of semi-translucent primers onto the GRP, but it may be that I can use a semi-translucent paint on those panels (ie., a candy colour effect, whereby the base colour shows through another top coat in different lights) ..so this Surrey-top-lid will look one colour from the outside but will still allow plenty of light through, for a lighter, more airy interior. Pete Interestingly with the white headlining in a standard roof its still actually pretty light inside the car anyway. You might like to consider the option of an interior light under your "T" bar, a strip of LEDs work well. Thats what I have fitted to the inside of the high level brake light in the rear window. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted July 8, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2022 On 7/6/2022 at 5:49 AM, Mk2 Chopper said: How will you join or seal the removable panels to the T bar when they are fitted? Presently, I'm hoping to use locating-pin on the panels flange to align things, and to use neoprene foam rubber as simple strip seals. However, this is 'design as I go' so things may change ..now or somewhere down the line if water drips in. Long thin bolts, right the way through the T-bar, may be necessary ..particularly as I don't yet know how securely the standard TR6 hood clamps will work with these lightweight fibreglass (less rigid) panels. Both roof panels are lighter than just the steel header rail off a TR6 fabric hood. Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted July 8, 2022 Report Share Posted July 8, 2022 Would a "T" seal work better between? Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted July 9, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2022 (edited) ^ half the problem with seals is how to keep them in place, and with lift off parts how to avoid them getting snagged and damaged. Neoprene strip has a large sticky face and even if it does get damaged then it's dirt cheap to replace. Still, I note your suggestion and will have a look through the cross-sections available. There may be one that inspires confidence. Cheers Stuart. In the meantime - latches. I like the lever-arm latches of the TR6 hood frame. They are very quick n' convenient to use and neatly tuck out of the way.. but with my having a very lightweight grp (rather than a pretty heavy pressed steel) front rail, I needed to make some changes. . . ^ After some thought .. I decided to turn the screwed-on chromed bracket the other way up. This is because, in the original configuration - the stepped flange on the actual lever pin (seen in the second photo) twists on and pushes down against the chunky steel of the hood frame's front rail. However, if I did the same with this fibreglass front rail, that very narrow flange would soon wear into / through the softer material. It's also a very localised transfer of load, which again wouldn't work well ..because grp is a lot more flexible than the same thickness of pressed steel. So., turning the screw-on plate over has the pin's flange running on the screw-on plate's metal and its loading is now distributed across the full footprint of that plate. Still I wanted to add some reinforcement . . . ^ I cut n' drilled a piece of steel angle to bolt on top (..anticipating the need for such a piece I'd picked it out of the skip on Monday. I think it might have been an office-furniture drawer runner). I found longer countersunk screws to fit and cut those 1/8" shorter, to be clear under the lever arm. This steel angle, although only about 1mm thick, is pretty rigid and so I'm using it to help prevent the ends of the grp front rail from curling up. It also serves to holds the flanged pin in place, within the screw-on bracket. ^ the angle section was bedded onto bridging filler, so load transfers will be more evenly be distributed. The g-clamps are simply holding either end of the fibreglass rail down while the resin sets. Once cured and the fibreglass filler was cleaned up, the metal was treated to a liberal coating of cold galvanising (zinc) paint. ^ front edge of the lift-off lid was then bonded onto the fibreglass rail. Again I used fibreglass bridging paste to do this, although once all is cured I'll add some fibreglass laminate too. ^ on the workmate bench.. the panel's front rail now looks like this. It's not yet tidied up, and the edge overhangs are not trimmed to size, but it gives you a clearer picture as to progress. Naturally, with beam depth added - the lid is structurally stiffer. ^ The backlight's cap rail was trimmed to best fit the lid tightly down onto, and then similarly bonded on ..with the aid of clamps, masking tape, lengths of timber wedged in place and an obscure weight.. to hold the lid down as the filler set. This was all set up beforehand, as a dry run ..because in this heat there's only a few minutes working time before the bridging-filler part-sets. Having worked out what I'm doing ..and how - I'm repeated the same sequence on the drivers side of the car . . . Poor little Katie will be glad when I'm done making a mess everywhere.! That's it for now, So once again.. bid you a good weekend, Pete p.s. I'm sure this all seems very seems slow progress, but please bear in mind that I'm not copying someone elses lid (ie., I'm making things up as I go along ). I also have to allow each stage of fibreglass to cure (giving me an opportunity to do other things inbetween times), and if you look back - it's only been a month since I started to make the mould for this. Edited July 11, 2022 by Bfg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted July 9, 2022 Report Share Posted July 9, 2022 "T" seals here Pete. https://sealsdirect.co.uk/shopping.asp?intDepartmentId=3#68 Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mk2 Chopper Posted July 9, 2022 Report Share Posted July 9, 2022 3 hours ago, Bfg said: ^ half the problem with seals is how to keep them in place, and with lift off parts how to avoid them getting snagged and damaged. Neoprene strip has a large sticky face and even if it does get damaged then it's dirt cheap to replace. Still, I note your suggestion and will have a look through the cross-sections available. There may be one that inspires confidence. Cheers Stuart. In the meantime - latches. I like the lever-arm latches of the TR6 hood frame. They are very quick n' convenient to use and neatly tuck out of the way.. but with my having a very lightweight grp (rather than a pretty heavy pressed steel) front rail, I needed to make some changes. . . ^ After some thought .. I decided to turn the screwed-on chromed bracket the other way up. This is because, in the original configuration - the stepped flange on the actual lever pin (seen in the second photo) twists on and pushes down against the chunky steel of the hood frame's front rail. However, if I did the same with this fibreglass front rail, that very narrow flange would soon wear into / through the softer material. It's also a very localised transfer of load, which again wouldn't work well ..because grp is a lot more flexible than the same thickness of pressed steel. So., turning the screw-on plate over has the pin's flange running on the screw-on plate's metal and its loading is now distributed across the full footprint of that plate. Still I wanted to add some reinforcement . . . ^ I cut n' drilled a piece of steel angle to bolt on top (..anticipating the need for such a piece I'd picked it out of the skip on Monday. I think it might have been an office-furniture drawer runner). I found longer countersunk screws to fit and cut those 1/8" shorter, to be clear under the lever arm. This steel angle, although only about 1mm thick, is pretty rigid and so I'm using it to help prevent the ends of the grp front rail from curling up. It also serves to holds the flanged pin in place, within the screw-on bracket. ^ the angle section was bedded onto bridging filler, so load transfers will be more evenly be distributed. The g-clamps are simply holding either end of the fibreglass rail down while the resin sets. Once cured and the fibreglass filler was cleaned up, the metal was treated to a liberal coating of cold galvanising (zinc) paint. ^ front edge of the lift-off lid was then bonded onto the fibreglass rail. Again I used fibreglass bridging paste to do this, although once all is cured I'll add some fibreglass laminate too. ^ on the workmate bench.. the panel's front rail now looks like this. It's not yet tidied up, and the edge overhangs are not trimmed to size, but it gives you a clearer picture as to progress. Naturally, with beam depth added - the lid is structurally stiffer. ^ The backlight's cap rail was trimmed to best fit the lid tightly down onto, and then similarly bonded on ..with the aid of clamps, masking tape, lengths of timber wedged in place and an obscure weight.. to hold the lid down as the filler set. This was all set up beforehand, as a dry run ..because in this heat there's only a few minutes working time before the bridging-filler part-sets. Having worked out what I'm doing ..and how - I'm repeated the same sequence on the drivers side of the car . . . Poor little Katie will be glad when I'm done making a mess everywhere.! That's it for now, So once again.. bid you a good weekend, Pete p.s. I'm sure all this seems very slow progress, but please bear in mind that I am making things up as I go, do other things inbetween time, and if you look back ..it's only a month since I started to make the mould for this lid. Seems like good progress whatever the speed, and I know this type of thing takes time to do. Hopefully I can get to see the finished roof at the Triumph & MG weekend if you are attending? Gareth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted July 11, 2022 Report Share Posted July 11, 2022 On 7/9/2022 at 3:23 PM, Bfg said: Lovely idea for a B&B clutch cover 2nd life Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted July 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2022 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted July 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2022 (edited) Not done much today but to stay out of the heat within the polytunnel. I did however, this evening, add beam depth stiffness to the front rails. Not because they were flexing but rather so they should be more robust to withstand everyday (ab)use. . . ^ very thin plywood (recycled packaging from the green grocer) was cut to shape, as a former to fibreglass onto. The front corner joint was first given a light laminate (300g/m) over the inside corner fillet of bridging-filler that I'd used to bond the two components together. And then the plywood, painted both sides and all edges with resin, was placed and likewise given a lightweight laminate. Together, the plywood with grp effectively form the web of an I-beam. It's all very lightweight and once cured will be surprisingly strong and stiff. ^ naturally both passenger & driver's sides lift-off lids were done. In due course they will be trimmed over to make things tidier inside the car, above the windscreen. Pete Edited July 11, 2022 by Bfg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mk2 Chopper Posted July 11, 2022 Report Share Posted July 11, 2022 That seems a wise idea, can see that will make it much stronger. Have you got enough room to get at the handle when it's closed? Even hotter tomorrow I think. Gareth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted July 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2022 yep, albeit finger room only. But if what I've allowed is not enough then I'll simply take the access hole out further with the cutting bit. "hotter" I don't honestly need. This evening's temperature was nice though ...as it was last night, after midnight, when I sat outside with a glass of brandy to watch the Mars rising and the satellites zipping around the sky. The evening air and the fragrance of honeysuckle and lavender was intoxicating. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted July 11, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2022 Btw. I now have to source Tr4 / Tr4A door glasses as I've the same issue as David aka qkingston had last year < here > ..insomuch as mine are also too high at the rear corner. Of course it doesn't help that I'd intentionally kept the rear of my lid very low / tight to rear window seal. oops ! . . . Many thanks to Stuart (again) for answering my question - before I even knew to ask it His reply to David was.. "By the looks of it you have the wrong glass fitted as I had a similar though less pronounced problem when I first fitted the Surrey top to mine which had TR5 glasses fitted as that was all that was available all those years ago when I restored mine, since replaced with correct 4/4a glass and now the fit is much better, your "Parrish" top may also fit differently." Which again highlights what a brilliant forum this is, especially when one takes the time and trouble to search through previous threads. As my windscreen frame / header rail and soft-top hood frame were TR6, then this is no surprise. But, perhaps like others, I simply didn't realise that these door glasses were shaped differently to fit the Tr5 or TR6 hood frames. Pete. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted July 12, 2022 Report Share Posted July 12, 2022 Pete it wasnt to do with the hood frame that the glass shape changed, it was to do with the winder mechanism which works completely different on 5/6s Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted July 12, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2022 I didn't know that, cheers Stuart. Nor why the lift mechanism should effect the top profile of the glass, but, anyhow., does that mean I'm also to buy and use TR4 / TR4A winder mechanisms as well ? And I'll need to replace the door glass runners, top felt and top seal when I do ..so I guess I'm not finished yet ! Even with TR4 door glass ..and the back-top-corner of those glass being 1/2" lower, they'll still not be a decent fit. There you go - it can happen when I go off on a tangent to do my own thing..Thankfully I don't bxxxs things up very often. I now look forward to seeing how the replacement glasses will adjust and fit into the apertures I have. I'm sure I can get the door glass seals to work (as well at least as the soft top !) but it'll not look as right as I would have liked. Hey ho., if I had another life time - I'd take the opportunity to do it again ! As an aside, I wonder how the new owner of Neil's (aka uprils ) two-piece Surrey top lid got on with it.? Anyone ?? Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted July 12, 2022 Report Share Posted July 12, 2022 I would think you have 4/4a winder mechanism because they dont fit the earlier door frames so if they changed the door frames then they would have to change the "B" post as the door catches are completely different, there was a point in the eighties when that was the only way to go as there was a serious shortage of original bits until all the ex US cars started appearing. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted July 12, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2022 3 hours ago, stuart said: I would think you have 4/4a winder mechanism because they don't fit the earlier door frames, so if they changed the door frames then they would have to change the "B" post as the door catches are completely different, there was a point in the eighties when that was the only way to go as there was a serious shortage of original bits until all the ex US cars started appearing. Stuart. ^ Thank you Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted July 14, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2022 (edited) Heads up.. please see For Sale / Wanted / Swap (under £250) section. . . For Sale : TR4 / TR4A / TR6 car parts.. (unless otherwise stated) these parts were in Katie when I bought her and are serviceable and tidy enough for the prior-owner to use and show the car. Collection only.. from Ipswich or Triumph & MG Weekend @ Strafford. o TR4A Seats x3 + 2-pairs of seat runners ; £75 for the three inc runners o black carpet set £20 o TR6 vinyl hood and frame £175 o Steel wheels x4, standard 4J x 15” for TR4 / TR4A £60 Pete Edited July 24, 2022 by Bfg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted July 17, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2022 (edited) My pottering this week.. started off by seeing if I were at least on the right track .. ^ by deducting the 4" width of the T-bar, these surrey lid panels do fit within the boot, with the full tool kit and space to spare underneath them. Of course that isn't so useful for touring but, at first glance, it does look practical enough for day-trips out with a holdall placed underneath the panels for coats or whatever. I have read of targa-top lid panels being slipped into cloth or vinyl sleeves ..so as to protect them from scratching. That's something I'll likewise explore. For touring - I guess boot-rack stowage of these panels would be best. In practice, I may only remove the driver's side lid for everyday driving, and then of course it's just one side panel to stow. Anyway moving onto the task in hand.. ^ I cut a steel plate and tapped it for 1/4" unf, then bonded that in under the rear flange ..for securing the lid to the backlight. Then, as I had done across the front rail of these lids, I cut very thin plywood webs and bonded those into place - before laminating over. This closed that box section and directly ties the lid's top surface to the vertical flange. Next up - things got a little more testing . . . ^ Without needing to reinvent things., the door-glass-seal needs to push onto a near-vertical flange. Those pieces were made two weeks ago (see 3rd July) with my laminating over a straight piece of rolled-angle. Thankfully (for the sake of style) the shape I needed for the seal's flange needed to be kinked. I marked the door glass with masking tape to simulate the TR4 shape of glass and deduced where a cut (just as single kink) was best made. ^ With the fibreglass 'angle' now kinked and held together with masking tape (..'cause I'm a sophisticate engineer type !), I cut n' sanded its return edge until it fitted where I wanted.. That being in line with the windscreen A-post and the backlight's B-post sealing flanges. As the glass is flat so then does this flange need to be straight. And although it probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference, because the door-glass has tumblehome to lay against the A-post, so this seal's angle is tilted out. That's not very clear in the last photo, until one compares the seemingly vertical flange with the angle of the timber post in the background. For clarity this photo would have been better rotated to that vertical. Anyhow, the fibreglass 'angle' / flange was tack-bonded in, what I hoped to be, the right place. . . ^ with the lid back on the car, the sealing flange was checked against the lines of the door glass. Although the bottom shape of the flange needs to be curved to the top line of the glass (in this case 1" above the bottom edge of the masking tape that can be seen).. it was close enough to proceed with. ^ the tack-bonding was appended to, and tidied up, as an inside corner fillet to be laminated over (x2 further layers of 300g csm). That then close the ring of flanges around the lid panel, which of course again adds to overall stiffness. Almost as an aside, but significant to ease-of-use, was to compare the weights ..original versus new. . . ^ the original steel surrey-top lid, in steel, with the front edge weather seal in place but otherwise bare and missing some of its inside structure, weighs about 20 lb ( 9 kg).. which when reaching out (to half its width.. let's say 21") up n' over the car - is an ungainly lump to handle. Due to its size & aerofoil shape - I'd be wary of doing it in a strong wind as well. In stark contrast ; the fibreglass half-lid presently weighs around 3.3lb (1-1/2 kg), without seals but with the TR6 front latch / level fitted. Its half-width is not even 9.5" which together with the lesser weight makes it very much easier to position on the car. It is still a little awkward though, insomuch as the peg on the latch has to be in aligned with the keyhole in the windscreen header rail, and the lid has to go down onto the windscreen and back-light frames almost vertically because of the deep flanges I have all the way around it. Anyhow moving on.. the issue I have now is with the driver's side door glass not fitting at all well . . . ^ Even if this were swapped for a TR4 door glass, which has 3/8" to 1/2" less height at the rear top corner, I'd still have a gap above its front-top-corner. And as you can see the angle of the back edge of the glass is not very good either ..now that the back-light's B-post has pulled down. That it seems comes from this body-tub's B-post / door shut having been positioned too low &/or at an angle when it was restored. Which in turn meant the rear-deck-panel, forward of the boot lid is also low in this corner. Therefore without major surgery - I'm scuppered. I could of course have a door glass made to fit the aperture we have, or . . . Or else I might fudge it (.. at least until the body-tub is next repainted) . . . ^ Time perhaps for a little wood whittling. And Oh the aromatic delight of working with timber again, I cannot express the pleasure ..compared to grp or steel fabrication. The 1/2" thick wood is of course recycled ..and was in fact part of a bulkhead on my boat, so it's high quality marine plywood I'm trying to pack this corner of back-light up with. As a bonus, I hope to benefit from another 1/2" of headroom under this side of the roof Crude ? undoubtedly yes ! ..but neither irreversible nor intrusive to the car. And it's definitely a cheap solution ..if it works ! Will it work ? ..and will it look xxxx ? Who really knows until I try it. Katie is for driving rather than showing, so let's just run through the exercise and then see what's what. Bare wood wouldn't last long, so it needed to be sealed, but what with ? resin or paint ? I opted to use the same red paint as I'd used inside and under the car. As I painted that on, I wet-out the wood with white-spirit, so as to encourage the paint to really soak into the fibres. When that's dry we'll see what's next. That's it for this week, so I bid you a pleasant Sunday evening. Pete Edited July 18, 2022 by Bfg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted July 18, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2022 (edited) ^ the back-light is now raised by 1/2" at its front RH corner, and that in turn tilts its B-post angle back a little to almost correct it ..relative to the door glass. Yes, the packer is there and noticeable to anyone who looks, but imo it's unobtrusive. I can live with it as long as Katie can ! Edited July 18, 2022 by Bfg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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