Electric water pump

[Rem18]

Sorry to say I have been doing days or reading regards drag factor and efficiency and its frightening how bad our cars are.

After reading I dont think I would ever go over 75 again.

J your car is going to be so inefficient now that you will need an even bigger pump to overcome the extra power you will need.

T

[Rem18]

Peejay. My F3 car is rear engined with turbo and two of the rads are at the front but thermostat is on engine at back, so its a bit of a problem as water wont travel that far, hence my idea for a pump when engine is off.

There will be some circulation with the engine off due to thermosyphon. That works on oldies, like the Climax mentioned above, but I imagine the effect is reduced on a modern system without much head.

Edited July 24, 2018 by Rem18

[Rem18]

Ahh sorry that was you with the Vitesse...

Had you tried it without disabling pump first?

Rem, See my post 8

John

[Rem18]

Sounds right Dave

 

Tony

 

I have a motoring friend here in Spain who has an MCC fitted with triple Weber carbs. He has just bought a Davis Craig that delivers 80 litres per minute and fitted with a manual over-ride. This was recommended to him from the crowd that race MGC´s and operate a rolling road at Brands Hatch, who have their pumps on all the time while racing. It is fitted in the bottom hose I believe.

 

Dave

[Rem18]

So Roy original and supplimentary can live together then.?

Why didnt you at least put a warning light in or was it a rece to death???

 

Had this on my TR 250 race car. Removed the pump and fitted a blanking plate in its place ,very easy to make. This then ment that a shorter fan belt could be fitted from crank to alternator thus helping solving the problem of throwing off fan belts when revving above 7000. If you go too the competition section you will see johns post re problems he had at Brands Hatch. I have gone back to standard pump as when a relay failed and the pump stopped it cost me a new engine. Also heard this from MG racers.

Did go down the route of fitting both pumps in line which worked fine but then still had the long fan belt problem.

 

Roy

[peejay4A]

Peejay. My F3 car is rear engined with turbo and two of the rads are at the front but thermostat is on engine at back, so its a bit of a problem as water wont travel that far, hence my idea for a pump when engine is off.

If the fans are running then the thermosyphon effect will still work. The front to back distance won’t be a problem as long as a temperature differential exists.

[Dic Doretti]

I would be interested in an electric oil pump. My Citroen Light 15 does not have an oil filter so I was wondering about fitting an electric oil pump and remote filter with a take off in the sump to keep the oil clean. The alternative is to use monograde oil and change every 1000 miles, even the early DS used this arrangement. Do these pumps exist?

Cheers Richard

[Rem18]

Richard did you try google?

https://www.ebay.com/bhp/12v-oil-pump

seems VDO and Mocal make them

https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/s/oil-system/electric-oil-pumps

 

I would be interested in an electric oil pump. My Citroen Light 15 does not have an oil filter so I was wondering about fitting an electric oil pump and remote filter with a take off in the sump to keep the oil clean. The alternative is to use monograde oil and change every 1000 miles, even the early DS used this arrangement. Do these pumps exist?

Cheers Richard

[Rem18]

Pete I dont think thats my case as the fans stay on for like 10m after a shut down.

 

If the fans are running then the thermosyphon effect will still work. The front to back distance won’t be a problem as long as a temperature differential exists.

[Dic Doretti]

Thanks Rem. I put more trust in this forum where people have experience than the inflated claims in the Internet.

Cheers Richard

[spyder dryver]

I fitted a Davies Craig EWP80 to a Lotus twincam engined Westfield to replace the troublesome original. I tested the pump in a bucket and was amazed at the flow rate. I fitted a power resistor in the 12v line to reduce the flow to around half. Full flow ( resistor bypass ) was triggered by the electric fan thermo switch which was a Kenlowe type bulb in the top hose. This meant that if the fan stayed on when the engine was switched off then so did the pump. No other controller was necessary.

[Rem18]

Spyder can you explain a little more please? D you simply give the pump a double feed so that when the fans hit the pump got the extra current?

I am thinking of only feeding via fans so that extra pump only comes in when fans are going as generally when driving my fans dont run only when idling and when stopped. Also did you need a relay for pump or was it enough to just feed 12 volts?

Tony

[peejay4A]

Pete I dont think thats my case as the fans stay on for like 10m after a shut down.

 

Thats exactly my point. The fans stay on.

[Rem18]

Yes Pete this is due as I wrote previously to the thermostat being in the cylinder hear at the back and two fans 15ft away so the cylinder head sensor doesnt know the water is colder further downstream, thus needs to be moved on which is what I am thinking an electric pump which ran in tandem with fans would help to do. at the moment I start the car again every 5m to circulate water a little more, but the fans do take a long while. The alternative is just to ignore it and turn the red rally key to isolate all the power anyway and have no fans after stop, which is generally what I do after say 10m.

[peejay4A]

OK, all I'm saying is that there will still be a thermosyphon effect. If you want to take a different view, then that's fine by me and I'm not trying to say that you don't have a problem. If you think a pump will help then why not go ahead?

[john.r.davies]

Ahh sorry that was you with the Vitesse...

Had you tried it without disabling pump first?

The D-C fitting instructions are emphatic about disabling the mechanical pump, with a whole seperate section so entitled: https://daviescraig.com.au/media/1319/1484523955.18924-UniversalEWPKitInstructions27.09.16.pdf

So no, I didn't.

Call me obedient, conventional even, but if you're going electric why keep the 19th century, steam-powered kit? Except as an idler!

John

[oldtuckunder]

Hmm...., what about an electric powered oil pump to get oil to the crank- and camshaft before start the engine?

 

 

I would be interested in an electric oil pump. My Citroen Light 15 does not have an oil filter so I was wondering about fitting an electric oil pump and remote filter with a take off in the sump to keep the oil clean. The alternative is to use monograde oil and change every 1000 miles, even the early DS used this arrangement. Do these pumps exist?

Cheers Richard

 

 

Richard did you try google?

https://www.ebay.com/bhp/12v-oil-pump

seems VDO and Mocal make them

https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/s/oil-system/electric-oil-pumps

 

 

All the electric pumps advertised are either for oil transfer (like the ebay one) or are designed for low volume flows for differentials or turbo's.

 

I did experiment with using an electric gear pump to replace my pre-oiler, but the transfer type pumps even the good ones will only work with thin oils like diesel when cold, or to pump engine oil, the oil needs to be warm/hot (if you read the data sheets) so useless as a pre oiler when the engine is cold. Believe me I tried a good one just to see.

 

One of the differential oil pumps might work as a pre-oiler, but they are expensive compared to installing a pressure vessel pre-oiler. Actually no a quick check of the data sheet on those also says "The brass pump body features bronze gears which can cope with most oil viscosities. Please note, the oil must be at 70°C or above before the pump can be used."

 

One of the transfer pumps would work in the DS situation though, if you took a feed and return to the sump via a remote filter head, and put the pump on a relay that was switched when the oil got up to temperature. I have a £40 12v gear pump here (almost unused) left over from my experiments.

 

Alan

[john.r.davies]

For pre-oiler - Accusump?

http://www.accusump.com/

 

John

[Rem18]

Alan That is what I was thinking, you could set it to go off once oil was warm?

Gotta be better than nothing?

 

 

 

All the electric pumps advertised are either for oil transfer (like the ebay one) or are designed for low volume flows for differentials or turbo's.

 

I did experiment with using an electric gear pump to replace my pre-oiler, but the transfer type pumps even the good ones will only work with thin oils like diesel when cold, or to pump engine oil, the oil needs to be warm/hot (if you read the data sheets) so useless as a pre oiler when the engine is cold. Believe me I tried a good one just to see.

 

One of the differential oil pumps might work as a pre-oiler, but they are expensive compared to installing a pressure vessel pre-oiler. Actually no a quick check of the data sheet on those also says "The brass pump body features bronze gears which can cope with most oil viscosities. Please note, the oil must be at 70°C or above before the pump can be used."

 

One of the transfer pumps would work in the DS situation though, if you took a feed and return to the sump via a remote filter head, and put the pump on a relay that was switched when the oil got up to temperature. I have a £40 12v gear pump here (almost unused) left over from my experiments.

 

Alan

[Rem18]

I wonder why it cant just run as a booster to the normal pump as long as flow direction is same?

Again my need would be just for a bit of circulation after switch off. I guess I could even just manually switch it on after I turn ignition off even just on a timer for say to keep water circulating for 5 min after, but I wonder if it might slow down the flow of the conventional pump when off?

 

The D-C fitting instructions are emphatic about disabling the mechanical pump, with a whole seperate section so entitled: https://daviescraig.com.au/media/1319/1484523955.18924-UniversalEWPKitInstructions27.09.16.pdf

So no, I didn't.

Call me obedient, conventional even, but if you're going electric why keep the 19th century, steam-powered kit? Except as an idler!

John

[Rem18]

Pete I am not trying to argue with you.

I am curious to understand what you are saying but find it hard to believe based on the fact the fans run for 10 minutes after.

If as you say the water naturaly moves around the engine even without a pump why do tyhe fans take so long to stop, only reason I can think of is that the fan'ed water doesnt make it back to the sensor?

The fact the fans run for so long implies to me that the radiator cooled water is not dribbling back to the sensor in the head or by the time it is then its very hot again.

I also wonder if the cylinder head (where sensor is also) is one of the highest points in the circuit and the front radiators are lower down left and right, wont the hot water always tend to stick around the cylinder head based on the principle that hot water will rise? The water in the radiators lower down, how will th water move on all the way back and up to the cylinder head if the hot water wants to stay at the top?

Interested thought to hear from you regards how you think fan water works its way back to the engine. Dont really need to to go to trouble of buying and plumbing a pump in if you think it wont make any difference? Especially as it seems maybe you cant have a traditional pump and an electric one runing at same time?.

Fire away.

Tony

Edited July 25, 2018 by Rem18

[oldtuckunder]

Thermo syphoning can occur in any water circuit, but to work properly the system has to be designed, in your instance with 15ft horizontal pipe runs not a hope in hell.

 

You don't want two pumps working on the same sealed circuit at the same time as they can fight each other, you certainly don't want one with a logic controller that is trying to adjust flow according to conditions on the same circuit as an uncontrolled one.

 

If I remember correctly from fitting a Davis Craig pump system in a TR7 the advice was also to remove the thermostat, and the controller is controlling the flow around the system based on temperature and you don't want a shut thermostat stopping the pump when its trying to work.

 

For you requirement, I would find a cheap in-line auxiliary pump and in either the flow or return to the rads put in a short parallel section of pipe with the pump in. Then with a simple circuit get the fan power feed to trip a relay that supplies the pump, that way the auxiliary pump only runs when the fans are on. It would actually be simple with an additional relay to only allow the aux pump to run when the fans are on but the ignition is off, i.e. when you shut down.

 

Should sort the problem for very little effort/money. There is a faint chance that you may fine that when the aux pump is running that there may be a tendency for some of the water to run in a loop around the short parallel circuit, but if it does and its a problem just fit a non return valve in the side without the pump.

 

Alan

[Rem18]

Exactly Alan!

In fact I indicated the pump I had in mind which is the same as a DC one in the original thread. Its only a low booster but should be enough to send the rad water further along even if not at high speed.

Tony

 

Thermo syphoning can occur in any water circuit, but to work properly the system has to be designed, in your instance with 15ft horizontal pipe runs not a hope in hell.

 

You don't want two pumps working on the same sealed circuit at the same time as they can fight each other, you certainly don't want one with a logic controller that is trying to adjust flow according to conditions on the same circuit as an uncontrolled one.

 

If I remember correctly from fitting a Davis Craig pump system in a TR7 the advice was also to remove the thermostat, and the controller is controlling the flow around the system based on temperature and you don't want a shut thermostat stopping the pump when its trying to work.

 

For you requirement, I would find a cheap in-line auxiliary pump and in either the flow or return to the rads put in a short parallel section of pipe with the pump in. Then with a simple circuit get the fan power feed to trip a relay that supplies the pump, that way the auxiliary pump only runs when the fans are on. It would actually be simple with an additional relay to only allow the aux pump to run when the fans are on but the ignition is off, i.e. when you shut down.

 

Should sort the problem for very little effort/money. There is a faint chance that you may fine that when the aux pump is running that there may be a tendency for some of the water to run in a loop around the short parallel circuit, but if it does and its a problem just fit a non return valve in the side without the pump.

 

Alan

[spyder dryver]

Spyder can you explain a little more please? D you simply give the pump a double feed so that when the fans hit the pump got the extra current?

I am thinking of only feeding via fans so that extra pump only comes in when fans are going as generally when driving my fans dont run only when idling and when stopped. Also did you need a relay for pump or was it enough to just feed 12 volts?

Tony

Hi Tony. You are essentially correct. Two feeds to the pump. One from ignition via a resistor, the other from the fan circuit. Relays to both feeds. Standard thermostat in place.

As already stated, the mechanical pump may not like another pump in line with it, running or not. I think that water will pass through a non-running Davies Craig pump but any restriction could be bad news.

If you intend to keep the original pump running then maybe look at the auxiliary pumps fitted to many modern cars. They should have been designed to allow through flow.

[littlejim]

When I fitted my EWP I took the existing water pump off and made up a blanking plate.** Also took out the thermostat as D/Craig recommended.

One problem I had to deal with was that the alternator I had fitted to the generator mount, rotated on the same axis as the engine pulley. The new belt from engine pulley to alternator just moved round the engine pulley, it never got tighter. Had to make up a spacer for the generator/ alternator mount to alter the centre of rotation. Could then tension the new belt.

The pump I used was their basic model, specs seemed appropriate to use in the TR4A.

Coped fine in Canberra summer (pretty hot here) and winter.

Did one rather sporting climb of the Clyde Mountain road, 5Km of hairpins and steep pinches in summer. The EWP and the electric fan were both running full bore by the top of the mountain, and the temp gauge was showing 100C. Didn’t see any actual signs of it boiling, the 4psi cap raises the boiling point slightly, but an indication that my EWP/electric fan combo had a limit. Piccie shows space where w/p used to be.

 

**