qim Posted October 14, 2017 Report Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) Hi When I start the car from cold (overnight) it is nearly impossible to engage second gear, as I drive it for the first kilometer or so. As the car gets warm the problem disappears. Some time ago, I started a thread on other problems (apparently common) with second gear as it sometimes disengages into neutral. Any ideas what causes the stiffness? Could it be oil not covering gears until it is splashed about after setting off? Thanks Camilo Edited October 14, 2017 by qim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 14, 2017 Report Share Posted October 14, 2017 Did you have the oil changed? Is there enough oil in the box? Etc. First the obvious questions need to be answered. The cheapest also, btw Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted October 14, 2017 Report Share Posted October 14, 2017 TR 'boxes were ever thus . . . . . double-declutching usually gets over the problem. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
qim Posted October 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2017 Yes, I checked the oil, and in fact, I even overfilled it. What I find strange is that once the car (gear box) is warm the problem disappears. Whilst cold I have to fight to get it in, even with successive double de-clutch Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 15, 2017 Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 Ah, you added fluid! Did you use the same viscosity? Since you're not mentioning crunching noises, I would think there's enough oil between the parts. That's not the problem, I think. But perhaps it's too think when cold. My first Saab had the same issues when cold. My trick was to drive off in first and keep it in first for a few hundred meters, then gently shifting it into second. And it was smooth as butter after that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
qim Posted October 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 (edited) My trick was to drive off in first and keep it in first for a few hundred meters, then gently shifting it into second. And it was smooth as butter after that. Hi Menno That's close to what I do. But what I need is to solve it. I'm sure I need to take the gearbox out but it makes sense to have an idea of what the problem is. If I need to change the gears for second, should that be the case, are they available? I understand that I should use engine oil as I have O/D but I am using gear oil, as I always did. Edited October 15, 2017 by qim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Freer Posted October 15, 2017 Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 ....... I understand that I should use engine oil as I have O/D but I am using gear oil, as I always did. Qim I had to read your last comment several times. Are you suggesting filling your GEARbox with ENGINE oil?? ???? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
qim Posted October 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 (edited) Are you suggesting filling your GEARbox with ENGINE oil?? Well. I am not really suggesting, but I read it somewhere, possibly in this forum. According to what I read it only applies if you have overdrive. After a quick googling... http://www.mg-cars.net/triumph-tr3-bbs/gearbox-oil-2002010313142315121.htm http://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/36237-gearbox-oil/ EDIT Slightly off the subject. While looking for parts for the gearbox I found this Moss page that suggests a 4-synchro box. http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/internal-gearbox-4-synchro-tr3a-4a.html Is this for a totally different box, or could I adapt my 3-synchro? Edited October 15, 2017 by qim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted October 15, 2017 Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 Nothing wrong with engine oil in a TR 'box . . . . . . overdrive or not. Same goes for the Rootesmobiles Audax and Arrows alike, that I drove starship miles in years gone by - all ran on 20/50. Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hamish Posted October 15, 2017 Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 ............. but I am using gear oil, as I always did. Ben I read it that he is using gear oil. H Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 15, 2017 Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 Nothing wrong with engine oil in a TR 'box . . . . . . overdrive or not. Same goes for the Rootesmobiles Audax and Arrows alike, that I drove starship miles in years gone by - all ran on 20/50. Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 15, 2017 Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 Nothing wrong with engine oil in a TR 'box . . . . . . overdrive or not. Same goes for the Rootesmobiles Audax and Arrows alike, that I drove starship miles in years gone by - all ran on 20/50. Cheers Alec Volvos with the box+J type OD run with 20/50 according to factory specs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted October 15, 2017 Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 Indeed so, as did the preceding Amazons . . . . . I used 20/50 in B16, 18 and 20 120 and 140 variants with no problems. Cheers Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted October 15, 2017 Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 (edited) Hi Camilo, the fact that the 2nd gear works after a short time suggests that warmth/heat is helping it. Are the hydraulics OK. It could be that the fluid is expanding slightly and helping things along. Difficulty engaging could be clutch related. Check the clutch Master/slave, bleed if necessary. As for engine oil in the gearbox It's a gearbox - why not use gear oil. You do not know what is in engine oil to make it work (in engines). Some engine oils have high levels of detergent. This can froth and play havoc with the OD pump. Stick with quality gearbox oil. Roger Edited October 15, 2017 by RogerH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 15, 2017 Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 (edited) Looking for a fact sheet on Volvo boxes, I stumbled upon a Volvo forum where members with the same problems are suggested what Roger suggests: check the clutch hydrolics for the reason he mentioned. Try the easy solutions first! Removing the box isnt much fun... Edited October 15, 2017 by Menno van Rij 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
qim Posted October 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 The clutch and brake pumps had the rubber bits (the kits) replaced only a week ago. Everything is fine with hydraulics. Besides, as I mentioned, the second engages fine once the car is driven for a mile or so. It is only while cold. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted October 15, 2017 Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 Hi Camilo, AND that is why i said check the clutch hydraulics - it is easy. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
qim Posted October 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 (edited) Difficulty engaging could be clutch related. Thanks Roger I doubt it as system was bled only last week in an experienced workshop, and the problem was there before changing the kits. Going into the box itself, what do you think could cause it? I had the box out some 14 years ago (and had the car garaged for the next 13...) and recall that the gear/s for the second were changed. It is possible that the problem stems from then, and that it could be due to the wrong gear. I have an idea that the part was unavailable and that some replacement (maybe second hand) from Revington or Rimmer was obtained. So, back to one of my questions, above: is it possible to get genuine parts for second gear, and while at it can I synchro first as well? Edited October 15, 2017 by qim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted October 15, 2017 Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 Hi Camilo, so there is more to the story. It could have been a partly worn second hand gear that was fitted that didn't like your gearbox. With a little warmth the gear expands and allows selection. Most parts available new but some are quite expensive. http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr2-4a/clutch-transmission-drivetrain/gearboxes-components/internal-gearbox-3-synchro-tr2-3a.html Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
qim Posted October 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 (edited) It's all very confusing... Looking at Moss' catalogue (pp. 30-31) the part number for a 3.synchro (105629) is the same as for a 4-synchro. Yet, the images in the catalogue are different! Why is this? In fact looking at part no, it seems that the 4-synchro should be 140508, meaning that ther image below does NOT correspond to my 3.synchro box. http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/internal-gearbox-4-synchro-tr3a-4a.htmlSearch for 140508 Comments, please! Edited October 15, 2017 by qim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted October 15, 2017 Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 " As for engine oil in the gearbox It's a gearbox - why not use gear oil. " Because at various times Laycock, Standard Triumph, Rootes and Volvo all recommended the use of engine oil in their o/d 'boxes . . . . . . and it tended to perform better than gear oil back in the day. It might simply be coincidence that I've never had to rebuild one of my own high-miler 'boxes run on engine oil in years gone by, only ever had problems with acquired 'boxes which had utilised gear oil . . . . Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 15, 2017 Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 Do I conclude correctly when I say that the problems appeared after the clutch parts were replaced last week? If so, you need to check there first Quote Link to post Share on other sites
qim Posted October 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 No, as I wrote before the problem was there before, but I will recheck the bleeding, anyway. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted October 15, 2017 Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 (edited) Hi Camilo, with the engine off and cold can you select 1st gear (depress clutch) and then 2nd gear - or is it stiff. If you can then that show it will engage cold. it may be the clutch plate spinning and 2nd synchro at fault under initial driving conditions. Roger Edited October 15, 2017 by RogerH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted October 15, 2017 Report Share Posted October 15, 2017 I don't have problems with 2nd gear on my TR but that may be because I have a saloon box with O/D and not a TR one, (still an A type though). I have had a similar problem in the past with an Alfa and the issue was worn synchro on 2nd gear that made it baulk going into 2nd until the box had warmed up a little. I used to do what Menno does and drive for a little way in 1st and then try 2nd or skip to third and double de-clutch into 2nd. It went on like that the entire time (3 years and many thousands of miles) I had the car - I never bothered to take the box out to check it out properly. My gearbox and O/D is filled with 20/50 as that was the general consensus on this forum when I rebuilt the car in 2012. Rgds Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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