PCV or not?

[peejay4A]

Interesting Wilfried. Do you have pictures of your device? Where does the device feed the aspirated air?

[Wilfried]

Interesting Wilfried. Do you have pictures of your device? Where does the device feed the aspirated air?

Yes, I have some pictures, but I don't know how to put them into my answer...!

The output of the device goes into the tube that brings it to the airfilters. Actually it is linked into the original tubing, in order to accelerate the evacuation. This is in the TR4 (exUSA) application.

In some other applications the output just goes in the environment...Thats where it went before I mounted the turbine.

Wilfried

 

PS I can send you the photos per Email if you give me your adress.

[Guest ntc]

You only need to look at the Kent crossflow system http://www.burtonpower.com/tuning-guides/tuning-guide-pages/engine-breather-system.html

Edited January 11, 2014 by ntc

[peejay4A]

You have a personal message Wilfried.

[Geko]

please share the pics !

[peejay4A]

If Wilfried doesn't mind I will post the pictures when I get them to save him the trouble.

[Badfrog]

Hi all,

 

I think I finally got the WORD. Comes in two parts:

 

1) the TR4A PCV system with its big round valve is as good as anything else and should not be tampered with, as per general agreement.

 

2) if you have a TR4 and are concerned with spitting oil in the environment, or a 4A without the valve and you want to install a PCV with oil catch tank, this is for you (and me):

 

Like many, I installed an electric fuel pump and used the free aperture of the mech pump in the block for blow-by outlet.This is wrong.

My friend Gerard Guiot, who builds TR3s and races them in long distance rallyes gave me the final here.

GG told me that there was an oil gravity feed for the camshaft and pump arm right in front of this aperture. Thus, the blow-by pressure pushes the dripping oil out into the PCV, hence the excessive spitting. This aperture should be blanked out and forgotten. GG told me of a TR2 owner who made his PCV right there, raced the car, emptied the oil sump and broke the engine.

 

The good move is to recreate the TR4 breather system, but cut off the pipe at the turn and hook it to a 2" rubber tube towards the oil catch tank with good vent.

This will be done on MdW in March, but I felt it would be nice to tell you and close the topic in a satisfactory way for all.

 

So there,

 

Badfrog

 

PS: GG's site: http://www.trregisterfrance.com/

Be aware that GG is no longer a member of the french TRR but as he made the site, he kept it. The french TRR has another site. OK.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Badfrog

[peejay4A]

Here are the pictures of Wilfried's vacuum pumped PCV system and here is Wilfried's description:

 

The first picture shows the prototype: the turbine is just sucking on the

top cover.

 

The second one shows the final version, which includes some coppertubing.

 

The third one shows the final arrangement.

 

The forth shows the turbine with the electrical feeeding: +12V comes from

the coil.

 

 

 

 

[Geko]

Very interesting. It works like a supercharged PCV if I understand well. It would be interesting to know about the interactions inside the turbine casing specifically if and how the oil/condensation collected from the rocker breather is re-routed into the carbs. This seems obvious for the blowby gas with enough depression vacuum but less so for oil and condensation which ideally should not go back to the carbs. Is there some kind of drain/filter at the bottom of the turbine casing? Should the turbine be serviced periodically to remove oil residues ?

Edited January 12, 2014 by Geko

[Paul Harvey]

Partially relevant, I attach picture of the breather arrangement fitted to the TR3 engine in my 1962 Triumph Italia in 1981 when the car had to be emissions tested in Italy prior to first registration for the road as a new car.

Other than this, the engine is completely standard TR3.

[Guest ntc]

Well I have seen some rubbish on here but that takes the biscuit ( not yours Paul )

[BrianC]

Partially relevant, I attach picture of the breather arrangement fitted to the TR3 engine in my 1962 Triumph Italia in 1981 when the car had to be emissions tested in Italy prior to first registration for the road as a new car.

Other than this, the engine is completely standard TR3.

That's interesting - I've seen filters with the large hole in at autojumbles and wondered why or what car they came from.

[mike3md]

Intriguing idea, whatever certain people might think.

 

The vacuum pump looks like a serious piece of kit - is it from another application?

[Geko]

Yes good to know possibly for electric vacuum pump for brake servo

Edited January 13, 2014 by Geko

[Wilfried]

You only need to look at the Kent crossflow system http://www.burtonpower.com/tuning-guides/tuning-guide-pages/engine-breather-system.html

Thanks Neil

This is an excellent description of the systems.

Wilfried

[monty]

Hi all,

 

I think I finally got the WORD. Comes in two parts:

 

1) the TR4A PCV system with its big round valve is as good as anything else and should not be tampered with, as per general agreement.

 

2) if you have a TR4 and are concerned with spitting oil in the environment, or a 4A without the valve and you want to install a PCV with oil catch tank, this is for you (and me):

 

Like many, I installed an electric fuel pump and used the free aperture of the mech pump in the block for blow-by outlet.This is wrong.

My friend Gerard Guiot, who builds TR3s and races them in long distance rallyes gave me the final here.

GG told me that there was an oil gravity feed for the camshaft and pump arm right in front of this aperture. Thus, the blow-by pressure pushes the dripping oil out into the PCV, hence the excessive spitting. This aperture should be blanked out and forgotten. GG told me of a TR2 owner who made his PCV right there, raced the car, emptied the oil sump and broke the engine.

 

The good move is to recreate the TR4 breather system, but cut off the pipe at the turn and hook it to a 2" rubber tube towards the oil catch tank with good vent.

This will be done on MdW in March, but I felt it would be nice totell you and close the topic in a satisfactory way for all.

 

So there,

 

Badfrog

 

PS: GG's site: http://www.trregisterfrance.com/

Be aware that GG is no longer a member of the french TRR but as he made the site, he kept it. The french TRR has another site. OK.

Hi Badfrog,

I am now a little confused! Does your last paragraph refer to the system that Racetorations produce or have I got it wrong? The Racetorations system uses the aperture where the mech pump used to be for a connection by 1 inch diameter hose to a fibreglass catch tank (along with a smaller diameter hose from the rocker cover). The tank is then vented by another 1 inch hose to underneath the car similar to the old TR4 arrangement. Have I wasted my money on the Racetorations system & should I return to the old TR4A PCV? I went this route to try & reduce my oil leakage, which it has done. No noticeable performance difference but I am now worried about extra wear you hinted at.

Cheers.

[Paul Harvey]

Monty,

 

Lots of people use the original fuel pump aperture with no apparent problems, and Racetorations have supplied plenty of them.

I used a Revington system on my 4A, very similar in concept, but which uses the breather pipe aperture below the fuel pump as I wanted to retain the mechanical fuel pump. I than adapted it because I didn't like the fumes (not a problem with the Racetorations 'sealed' tank)

 

Various experts have contributed to quite a few threads on this subject (including you!) and there is NO complete concensus. I seem to recall that you were happy to see all the gunge in your catch tank and I think that is perfectly OK.

 

Badfrog is a proper engineer and has a devious solution of his own which he still wants to improve.

Other engineers will always come up with ever more fiendish solutions, backed by science (or not) as the case may be.

 

It's all part of the fun of the Forum :-)

[stuart]

Absolutely nothing wrong with the Racetorations kit, I have been using it for years on my 4a and it works fine. The 4 cylinder kit breathes the block from the blanking plug where the original breather pipe was fitted on early 4 cylinder cars. The 6 cylinder version of the kit breathes the block from the fuel pump blanking plate

Stuart.

[Guest ntc]

No matter what you fit if the engine is worn / not built right you will get blow by,the above tank is only a collector of small amounts of crud and saves the engine breathing it in.

[Badfrog]

Hi Badfrog,

I am now a little confused! Does your last paragraph refer to the system that Racetorations produce or have I got it wrong? The Racetorations system uses the aperture where the mech pump used to be for a connection by 1 inch diameter hose to a fibreglass catch tank (along with a smaller diameter hose from the rocker cover). The tank is then vented by another 1 inch hose to underneath the car similar to the old TR4 arrangement. Have I wasted my money on the Racetorations system & should I return to the old TR4A PCV? I went this route to try & reduce my oil leakage, which it has done. No noticeable performance difference but I am now worried about extra wear you hinted at.

Cheers.

Hi Monty,

 

The last posts sort of mutually feed themselves:

Paul is right, I am a tweaker by all means.

Neil is right, if you have severe blow-by, nothing will do.

Stuart is right, if your engine is brand new with no blow-by at all, the fuel pump aperture can be considered safe for the very small amount of pressure present (Racetorations kit). That will of course do nothing in terms of performance, off-topic here.

 

BUT, what I meant stands for all these cars with some degree of wear and a small to medium blow-by: then the fuel pump aperture is no-good as per my previous statement and you should keep the original setting or use my proposal of cutting the original breather pipe after the turn and hook it thru a large tube (1.5" to 2") to the oil catch.

1" tubes are more aesthetic but they are too narrow and the pressure builds against the tube wall and keeps its momentum (Kastner's theory).

 

Am I clearer now? The basic idea is to do nothing if the problem is minor and keep the original setting. IMO, the Racetorations kit is very nice if you don't really need it.

 

In the case of MdW, the engine is about 25K miles and all compressions are perfect. The blow-by is medium and I have no idea why it is there, but it precludes the fuel pump aperture absolutely.

 

Badfrog

Edited January 15, 2014 by Badfrog

[Paul Harvey]

To clarify the Badfrog and Stuart posts (both are TR experts)

 

Stuart points out that the Racetorations fitting for a TR4/4A engine (4 cylinder) is already designed to fit the lower breather hole and not the fuel pump aperture. Their breather pipe is a press fit in the aperture, as is the bespoke pipe from Revington (I can't comment on TR6)

If you already have a breather pipe (TR4) it can be adapted for a catch tank as Badfrog mentions.

 

Badfrog's main comment, which goes against received wisdom from several previous posts, is that it is NOT generally a good idea to use the fuel pump aperture for a breather. Go the extra mile, blank off this aperture if you remove the pump, and then open up the lower breather hole for your catch tank breather (PS anyway there are lots of experts who will say the mechanical fuel pump is perfectly OK and the best solution for all but for serious race use)

 

Simples!

Edited January 15, 2014 by Paul Harvey

[AlanT]

The problem is getting the blanking-plug out with the engine in situ.

This makes the fuel-pump hole look attractive.

[Badfrog]

Right, it is no chicken feet to remove that plug.

 

For an extra word, my purpose was to give a solution when you should really dismantle the engine and give it a shufti, but don't want to bother for an extra 2-3 years until absolutely forced to do so by a diesel-like car.

 

Badfrog

Edited January 16, 2014 by Badfrog

[monty]

To clarify the Badfrog and Stuart posts (both are TR experts)

 

Stuart points out that the Racetorations fitting for a TR4/4A engine (4 cylinder) is already designed to fit the lower breather hole and not the fuel pump aperture. Their breather pipe is a press fit in the aperture, as is the bespoke pipe from Revington (I can't comment on TR6)

If you already have a breather pipe (TR4) it can be adapted for a catch tank as Badfrog mentions.

 

Badfrog's main comment, which goes against received wisdom from several previous posts, is that it is NOT generally a good idea to use the fuel pump aperture for a breather. Go the extra mile, blank off this aperture if you remove the pump, and then open up the lower breather hole for your catch tank breather (PS anyway there are lots of experts who will say the mechanical fuel pump is perfectly OK and the best solution for all but for serious race use)

 

Thanks for that Paul. I have used the old pump aperture because it was vacant due to electric pump fitted, difficult to remove the lower plug & that Racetorations supplied the fuel pump aperture fitting in their kit! The kit appears to work well & I believe Racetorations must know what they are doing/ supplying etc. The only problem is emptying the tank, as there is no drain plug. How do you do it?

Cheers.

 

Simples!

[Paul Harvey]

Monty,

 

The search for a perfect catch tank set-up goes on.

In my case there is a drain plug on the Revington aluminium catch tank but you cannot remove the lid to see what is in the tank.

Mine was therefore modified by Stuart who fitted a new bolt on aluminium top without venting holes - this stops the fumes and lets me look in the tank and clean it from above or via the drain plug..