Newbie question

[wayne taylor]

How easy is it to re-route the 'copper' fuel pipeline from pump to carbs? Can I buy the stuff (where from) and can I (an amateur extraodinaire) bend it to the required profile easily/with difficulty?

 

Secondly, is it far easier to buy rubber fuel pipeline hose and do it?

 

thanks in advance

[RogerH]

Hi Wayne,

don't use rubber pipe for the whole run. The pipes can be got form the normal outlets - Moss, TRShop etc.

The normal route - up from the pump then along the line of the spark plugs, under the thermostat housing, then to the carbs - works well.

 

Roger

[AlanT]

Your question maybe about how to bend pipe so it goes where you want it to.

 

Frosts have a hand tool that does this.

 

I bend em by just using my thumbs. You need strength and knack for this.

 

One trick to remember is that its hard to put a bend close to the end of a pipe. So leave it long, bend it, cut it off.

 

Al.

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

1/4" pipe on TR4/4A

5/16" pipe on TR2-3A

Kunifer available in a lot of places. The nut and olive available from the good specialists who care.

I have the dimensions for the pipe pump to carbs somewhere if you are stuck as I used to make them for Moss.

 

Cheers

Peter W

 

link to Holden for a 25 ft roll

http://www.holden.co.uk/displayproduct.asp?pCode=065.643

[BrianC]

Safest and cheapest (free!) ways to bend tubing are:

 

1) Fill with sand and block the ends.

2) Insert a length of speedo/tacho inner cable.

 

 

[peejay4A]

3) wash out sand.

 

[RogerH]

Hi Wayne,

if you need to do the run under the car then it may be worth buying a kit. Automec do a reasonable one. Make sure you specify for your car.

Available in Copper or Cunifer. As there is no pressure in the system then Copper works well and can look neat.

 

Roger

[wayne taylor]

Copper (1/4") it is then. From pump to carbs. Hopefully I can get it locally (such a short length)? Love the idea of sand to stop it kinking, but why the additional inner cable from th speedo/tacho???.

 

Thanks guys, you're all a great library of advice, couldn't do it this easily without you, much appreciated.

 

In case I forget: HAPPY CHRISTMAS TO YOU ALL AND A VERY PEACEFUL AND PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR.

[BrianC]

3) wash out sand.

 

 

 

 

1 and 2 were alternatives, not steps

(I assumed anyone using sand would remember to wash it out afterwards - but then again knowing some of the people on here... ).

Option 2 is by far the better and also easier.

Edited December 7, 2012 by BrianC

[AlanT]

I have made every single pipe on my 4A using Kunifer in various sizes.

 

I never used sand. I really wouldn't do this. Too much risk of it getting somewhere you don't want.

I never used any cables either.

 

I stuck to a minimum bend radius of about 40mm and never kinked anything. I just bent them by hand. Used my two thumbs opposing each ther and making the right curve.

 

Kunifer work hardens if you bend it about twice. You just blow-lamp it and let it cool to recover the softness.

 

Al.

[wayne taylor]

Presumably I'll need a woozy maGizmo to knurl the ends to attach the threads etc??

[AlanT]

The thing you are looking for is a "flaring tool". Mine makes two kinds of ends.

 

A belled out end like the horn on a trumpet. This has a female threaded fitting with a big nut on the outside.

A turned-over end. This has a male threaded fitting with a smaller nut.

 

The second type is a bit harder to do. The tool needs practise to get the right amount of pipe projecting into the die-head.

 

Frost has these tools too, I would expect.

 

Once you have learned the technique just remember to put the fitting on the pipe BEFORE you flare it.

As jobs go this about as hard as learning to solder or drill a hole where you want it. Not as much to learn as welding.

 

By the way there are special spanners for these fittings that are about half-way between a ordinary open-ended and a full-ring.

I throughly recommend these for not taking the corners off and making the fittings unremovable.

 

Al.

[RogerH]

Hi Wayne,

you only need one pipe. Why worry about making flared ends etc.

 

http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=2110 Item 40 #305995 1/4 pipe or 205048 5/16 pipe. Maybe coppper or steel.

 

Or contact Automec direct and get it in cunifer ready made.

 

Roger

[AlanT]

Come on Roger, he's young, this won't be the last time he needs a pipe!

 

Al.

Edited December 7, 2012 by AlanT

[pfenlon]

when you get a bit of practice in Wayne, I have a couple of tips.

 

As Roger says the routing of the pipe goes along the N/S of the engine and under the thermostat etc etc. But if you really want to do it easily, you can fit a Facet electric pump somewhere in line, mine is under the rear deck floor and then run the pipe around the back of the engine.

 

 

Bending the pipe around a tea mug gives a nice curve too. the pipes go down in size too as they join the carbs, its something like 5/16" from tank to carb then down to a 1/4" Stuart would know best though.

[wayne taylor]

How much is a flaring tool? I fancy routing it behind the cylinder head between it and the bulkhead and then along the o/s of the engine block before doing a 180 into the carb inlet. Neat shorter distance? and subtle (not as " in your face" as the existing route. Any dissenters?

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Presumably I'll need a woozy maGizmo to knurl the ends to attach the threads etc??

 

 

You do not need to do any flaring.

The pipe nut that screws into the pump outlet is sealed by a double sided olive. (TL7 for 1/4" pipe) - all items are listed singularly in the Moss catalogue.

 

The inlet to the pump is a short bit of metal pipe with olive and nut fitted that is fed by a section of rubber hose from the chassis mounted tube. - I have new steel ones of these PM me if reqd.

 

 

How to do your new pipe:-

 

Make the bends.

Check the pipe fits and points in the right direction. (disconnect the battery so you can not short the pipe out on it as you wave it about behind the engine.

Work out where the clipping will be.

Fit the nut for the pump end.

Fit the olive.

Insert pipe in pump and hold in place as you gently tighten the nut.

 

The nut swages and secures the olive to the pipe, retaining the nut too.

 

Do not over tighten or the sealing will be jeopardised and the pipe will have the olive crushed into it.

 

Cheers

Peter W

Edited December 7, 2012 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[AlanT]

Oh I'd lost sight of the fact that you were really interested in a petrol pipe.

 

As Peter says its only the hydraulics that needs flares. The petrol uses "olives" like plumbing copper water-pipes.

 

I never form these onto the pipe using the thread in a Mazak part like a petrol-pump. These threads are too easy to pull out.

 

I use a spare brass fitting to tighten the olive the first time. Using Kunifer or copper pipe you can soft-solder the olive on if you have a brass one. But you need skill with soldering to do this.

 

Petrol pipes on a 4/4A don't run any real pressure. Its not to hard to avoid leaks.

 

There is a thread running that suggests copper is bad if fuel has ethanol in it. The steel pipes need a tool to bend them in sizes above the smallest.

 

Al.

[MikeF]

For a short length of copper pipe jsut chat up a plumber, standard sizes for them (for central heating etc), my guy had reel in his van and cut me off a length in return for a printout of a honeywell controller book and promise of a beer

 

Mike

[AlanT]

I see, in county areas, like Oxfordshire, you still get plumbers who are friendly.

 

Al.

[Badfrog]

Come on Roger, he's young, this won't be the last time he needs a pipe!

 

Al.

 

Yep, it's allright if you don't inhale.

Re- the topic, I would definitely buy the original part (Moss or else). Fiddling/DIY is for parts that don't exist on the market.

 

Badfrog

[MikeF]

I see, in county areas, like Oxfordshire, you still get plumbers who are friendly.

 

Al.

some of them, the onus is the other way though! Chris picks and chooses who he sees. If he doesn't like you he doesn't return phone calls, [he never actually answers his phone]. If he really doesn't like you he gives you dates but never turns up. Customers are graded on price also and if the job is too small he tells you how to do it yourself. " A man of yor calibre Mike, you don't need me, waht you do is.....)

 

Mike

[Menno van Rij]

Now, this gets interesting!

 

When you route the pipe around the back of the cylinder head, do not make the mistake attach it to the bulkhead for 'optical reasons'... The bulkhead and the engine (where both end of the pipe are attached to: the pump and the carb) are seperate items and they move separately when you're driving your car. The pipe will crack. You can only lead the pipe behind the cylinder head when you make sure that the pipe is attached (somewhere) to the engine itself: that way, the movement of the engine when you're driving, will not be transferred to the fuel pipe, since it's an integral part of the engine!

 

Must say, that in imho, the original routing is the best. You can opt for a 'cool sleeve' to protect the fuel inside the pipe from vapour lock - best to install a heat shield between the carbs and the exhaust manifold as well (but that's another topic...)

 

Menno

[Menno van Rij]

Now, this gets interesting!

 

When you route the pipe around the back of the cylinder head, do not make the mistake attach it to the bulkhead for 'optical reasons'... The bulkhead and the engine (where both end of the pipe are attached to: the pump and the carb) are seperate items and they move separately when you're driving your car. The pipe will crack. You can only lead the pipe behind the cylinder head when you make sure that the pipe is attached (somewhere) to the engine itself: that way, the movement of the engine when you're driving, will not be transferred to the fuel pipe, since it's an integral part of the engine!

 

Must say, that in imho, the original routing is the best. You can opt for a 'cool sleeve' to protect the fuel inside the pipe from vapour lock - best to install a heat shield between the carbs and the exhaust manifold as well (but that's another topic...)

 

And, I must say that making your own car's fuel pipes (and brake pipes for that matter) is a very rewarding job - one of the nicest things I've done when restoring my car.

 

Menno

[wayne taylor]

On face value the local plumber might have small bore copper piping but it'll be 15mm normally. Are you saying plumbers have 6.5mm pipwork also???? (1/4").