AndrewP Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) Evening folks, Yet another gearbox/clutch related question. Spent the last 2 nights removing my gearbox. Plan is to fit the A-type Overdrive to my A-type G/B and give it a bit of a going over/birthday. Sooooooo its out and on the floor and..I dont think its a good thing So #1 issue. Clutch is a Borg and Beck type, and the thrust bearing carrier has cracked around the skirt #2 issue...the clutch spring fingers have slight grooves worn in them. Only issue I can see is they are not evenly worn, with one side deeper than the other. In the same pic above..the keen eyed may also see that the locating dowel is either snapped off or pushed back in the block..means I guess the alignment may be the cause of the uneven wear?..answers on a postcard #3 issue...(not a major one) the g/box has been leaking through its front seal as oil is everywhere in the bell housing. #4 issue (final one for the time being) is the input shaft is loose. That is it wobbles when I grab the spigot end and wiggle (Im the hand model in the below pic!) It never rains it pours. So can anyone soften the blow and give me an idea what I need to do? Im guessing new clutch? IS it possible that the locating dowel has simply been pushed back into the block? There's definitely something there but before I start drilling and easy out I'm seeing if its a simple job of pulling it forward? Why would the input shaft be wobbly? Im supposing bearings, but could this mean bigger problems inside the box? (a small amount of metal in the oil, but nothing substantial, and box never made any scarey noises). The box is going off to to someone to mate the OD and box, but dare I ask what the prognosis may be? Sigh...Not sure if I need reminding, but this whole thing started out as a brake overhaul!!! Cheers Andrew Edited July 21, 2011 by AndrewP Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rpurchon Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) Evening folks, dont panic input shaft wobble is normal. i thought the dowel bolts were at 9 & 3 0 clock ish postion richard Edited July 19, 2011 by rpurchon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PJM Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 The grooves being worn in the fingers is normal and personally I wouldn't worry over the uneven wear as it is going to be changed anyway (isn't it?) May have been caused by the broken skirt of the bearing which will also be changed, were the broken parts sitting in the bell housing? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mike G Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Hi Andrew As well as replacing the release bearing carrier check the pins, in the release fork if there are any flats on them, they too will require replacing. The ends are peened over, so would have to be drilled out. I got mine from James Paddock of Chester; they mainly deal with Stags, but stock a lot of TR spares (other suppliers may stock them). It may also be a good opportunity, to fit a 6mm “roll pin” to the release fork. The input shaft seal is very easy to replace, remember that there are copper washers fitted to some of the bolts Mike G Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nick Jones Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Some play to the tip of the input shaft, 2 - 3mm say, is normal. Significantly more than this suggests that the input shaft bearing and/or the spigot bearing between the input shaft and mainshaft is worn. Box needs to come apart to deal with that. Have you tried draing the oil and seeing what is sticking to the magnetic plug? Nick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AndrewP Posted July 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) Gents, Many thanks for the replies. I guess it looks like a bit of a knee jerk as Id just spent a few hours cursing and loosing knuckle skin to get the box out. Its a relief to know that so far (opening and looking inside withstanding) it seems fairly normal for a used box and clutch. Richard,..yeah I think your correct. I guess it must be a snapped stud that I need to look at. The dowel bolt locations are clear so I`ll look into getting 3/8" bolts to act as dowel bolts (think I found a message from Stuart a while ago specifying the length etc). PJM...To be perfectly honest..I wasnt going to change it before I saw inside..now I think Im resigned to changing it for peace of mind. Strangely the bits were not in the bell housing, so makes me wonder if its been out/re-used before. Not entirely sure why its broken on the rear of the carrier (given the thrust is on the other side). The only forces the backside see are the fork pulling the bearing back. I did wonder if the return spring on my clutch slave cylinder may have not helped? Mike...Carrier pins seem perfect. I think largely due to copious amounts of grease and the leaking gearbox front seal. Thankfully the taper pin seems in tact and the fork has also been double pinned so its as solid as a rock. Overall, once the gunk and grease is all cleaned off it will be OK I think. Nick...I think its only 1-2mm... that's a big relief! As I said in the post..this job started off as a brake overhaul, but Im trying to fit the A-type OD without the costs becoming astronomical, which it regularly does for me. The oil wasnt that bad..a few specs of metal, but no big chunks or worrying bits. There wasn't a magnetic plug, so its one of the things on my shopping list. For what its worth for others and potential owners of TR6's....I think my car has had a significant time laid up. This coupled with a PO who has done half arsed jobs has made every-single-job a battle. Even removing the g/box bolts I found 3 variations of the correct bolt. One was even a Whitworth! You need to factor in this time and energy in your costings. Cheers for all the replies. I`ll keep you all updated with pics etc. The box and OD is going off to the garage tomorrow so I`ll know more once its all been opened and I get a shopping list from the rebuilder. Andrew Edited July 20, 2011 by AndrewP Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Morrison Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Think ^mm roll pin to the fork is a tad big, I use 4mm, not a lot of point in solving one weekness to 'Fit' another one. John. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Think ^mm roll pin to the fork is a tad big, I use 4mm, not a lot of point in solving one weekness to 'Fit' another one. John. I think that should be OD not ID The dowel bolts are the same type as prop shaft bolts with the long shoulder for alignment. I have seen carriers with bits broken off the back and no sign of the debris, they look like poor castings and it wouldnt be return springs doing that as they arent that strong . The bronze carriers are a good upgrade though not cheap. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AndrewP Posted July 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 John, Stuart..whats the roll pin you both mention? Is it the 2nd pin in the clutch fork? My understanding was the the taper pin was the weakness, so an additional pin in the shaft helps? I read an earlier post you made Stuart (to Robin I think) and its been very useful with bolt sizes etc. Thank goodness for the search function! Any opinions on the replacement clutch type?...I was just going to fit the replacement Borg and Beck type as supplied by Rimmers etc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dave-lewis Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 John, Stuart..whats the roll pin you both mention? Is it the 2nd pin in the clutch fork? My understanding was the the taper pin was the weakness, so an additional pin in the shaft helps? I read an earlier post you made Stuart (to Robin I think) and its been very useful with bolt sizes etc. Thank goodness for the search function! Any opinions on the replacement clutch type?...I was just going to fit the replacement Borg and Beck type as supplied by Rimmers etc. Hi Andrew, I would definitely go for the Laycock clutch set, as they were fitted as original equipment and in my opinion, are much better than B+B. Kind Regards, Dave Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) John, Stuart..whats the roll pin you both mention? Is it the 2nd pin in the clutch fork? My understanding was the the taper pin was the weakness, so an additional pin in the shaft helps? I read an earlier post you made Stuart (to Robin I think) and its been very useful with bolt sizes etc. Thank goodness for the search function! Any opinions on the replacement clutch type?...I was just going to fit the replacement Borg and Beck type as supplied by Rimmers etc. Yes its a belt and braces approach Stuart. Edited July 20, 2011 by stuart Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Fremont Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Hi Andrew, I would definitely go for the Laycock clutch set, as they were fitted as original equipment and in my opinion, are much better than B+B. Kind Regards, Dave Didn't know these were to be had anywhere but quite good no doubt. I have one of these on my spare engine with few miles from new. Engagement a tad abrupt but otherwise fine. Equally good IME is the Sachs/LUK/Toyo combo AKA Magic Clutch Kit from TRF. They offer a bronze TOB sleeve with it too ( no clue here as to why bronze is better than steel ). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mk1PI Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) John, Stuart..whats the roll pin you both mention? Is it the 2nd pin in the clutch fork? My understanding was the the taper pin was the weakness, so an additional pin in the shaft helps? I read an earlier post you made Stuart (to Robin I think) and its been very useful with bolt sizes etc. Thank goodness for the search function! Any opinions on the replacement clutch type?...I was just going to fit the replacement Borg and Beck type as supplied by Rimmers etc. You can get the clutch cover rebuilt at Perth brake Parts in Welshpool - thats what I did with my Herald and its where David Markich gets custom centres and his covers made. I have found Borg and Becks done there are always very good. Funnily I have never had an issue with aftermarket 2.5 clutches in Oz - only the UK. I did use a Sachs clutch too in my PI and that was brilliant - really light and excellent strong (wheel spinning) bite if required. Worth talking to them as they can do pretty much anything cheaper than the UK and they custom build stuff if required - they will build the cover to a rating that you want. Edited July 20, 2011 by Mk1PI Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AndrewP Posted July 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 Hi Andy, Have been trying to get hold of you, but assumed you were out of the country at the mo. Dave M mentioned youd rebuilt a few gearboxes and was going to pick your brains. Called Perth brake parts and in their own words, it would be borderline on the savings (if any) on recon vs replace (and wear the cost of postage). I`ll still take it to them to see what its going to cost though. Any saving is better than none! Was after your opinion on the synchros as well. Dave M mentioned Canley classics as a good source, but I was seeing if youd had any experience with the Rimmers 'premium' synchros? Im hoping Dave comes back to me with a list of stuff and I can order in 1 hit. Just my luck though as Rimmers dont seem to have any sales going on at the moment! Cheers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mk1PI Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 Hi Andy, Have been trying to get hold of you, but assumed you were out of the country at the mo. Dave M mentioned youd rebuilt a few gearboxes and was going to pick your brains. Called Perth brake parts and in their own words, it would be borderline on the savings (if any) on recon vs replace (and wear the cost of postage). I`ll still take it to them to see what its going to cost though. Any saving is better than none! Was after your opinion on the synchros as well. Dave M mentioned Canley classics as a good source, but I was seeing if youd had any experience with the Rimmers 'premium' synchros? Im hoping Dave comes back to me with a list of stuff and I can order in 1 hit. Just my luck though as Rimmers dont seem to have any sales going on at the moment! Cheers In canada atm - back in August I have only ever used NOS synchros (found by trawling ebay) or good secondhand ones which David selects - my current 'stock' is one NOS Stanpart TR4 synchro ring but they are all the same Part no. Nick Jones's write up on the subject is excellent- I would try to get the best quality ones but maybe only x 2 as its only 2nd and 3rd that really wear. Regarding the clutch I would go with PBR - if there is an issue then the warranty issue is easier to deal with in Welshpool rather than Lincoln who would have no testing facility unlike PBR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TRTOM2498PI Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 I have had issues with hub sychros before in my TR6. I used a chap called Roy Talbot who works for himself in Lincolnshire (called First gear from memory) He used to advertize in TR Action. His were very good quality, as a lot of the stuff out there is not very good. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
B Fitzpatrick Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 John, Stuart..whats the roll pin you both mention? Is it the 2nd pin in the clutch fork? My understanding was the the taper pin was the weakness, so an additional pin in the shaft helps? I read an earlier post you made Stuart (to Robin I think) and its been very useful with bolt sizes etc. Thank goodness for the search function! Any opinions on the replacement clutch type?...I was just going to fit the replacement Borg and Beck type as supplied by Rimmers etc. Hi AndrewP This was me 2 years ago - hydraulics failed and decided to remove gearbox to sort out everything, went to Stoneleigh and got myself a Laycock clutch - 2 years on still like a new car - silky smooth action - make the car a joy to drive. I notice you are not a member of the Register cos if you were you would have a CD as part of your initial subscription "CD Technicalities" - invaluble advice in it on this whole procedure even down to the importance of the 'dowels' for aligning the clutch, and advice on where to have plenty of grease (Cant find the CD at the moment as I was using last weekend at work but it contains lots more than just clutch replacement) Regards and hope you get it sorted soon - TRs are for driving Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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