TR3A starting

[PhilJane]

Now the temperatures have risen a little in the UK, I decided to fire up the TR3A for a short run. The battery had been fully charged and was ready to go. I used the manual fuel primer on the lift pump, got a good cranking speed but no firing, or for that matter, any smell of petrol from the exhaust. Checked all the linkages and they seemed OK, but no sign of a fire. Still puzzled on that, but suspect fuelling/fuel blockage?

While looking at the lift pump, I noticed there was a 5mm (heat insulating?)spacer between the block and the lift pump. Also noticed that there was very little thread engagement on the lift pump mounting studs, so much so that the "P" clip on the oil pressure gauge pipe(which presumably mounts on one of the studs) was abandoned in favour of a nylon "tie wrap" around the flange mounting! Have I got short studs or is an incorrect spacer fitted?

Any help would be appreciated.

Phil.

[TR 2100]

Now the temperatures have risen a little in the UK, I decided to fire up the TR3A for a short run. The battery had been fully charged and was ready to go. I used the manual fuel primer on the lift pump, got a good cranking speed but no firing, or for that matter, any smell of petrol from the exhaust. Checked all the linkages and they seemed OK, but no sign of a fire. Still puzzled on that, but suspect fuelling/fuel blockage?

While looking at the lift pump, I noticed there was a 5mm (heat insulating?)spacer between the block and the lift pump. Also noticed that there was very little thread engagement on the lift pump mounting studs, so much so that the "P" clip on the oil pressure gauge pipe(which presumably mounts on one of the studs) was abandoned in favour of a nylon "tie wrap" around the flange mounting! Have I got short studs or is an incorrect spacer fitted?

Any help would be appreciated.

Phil.

 

There should not be any spacer, just a gasket. The engagement of the

pump arm on the camshaft lobe can be a problem - someone messing around?

 

The rear nut is especially difficult to remove - try with a ¼" drive

ratchet, short extension and universal joint, if you have them.

 

AlanR

[vivdownunder]

Phil, there was only a thin gasket between the manual pump and the block. Perhaps a PO has tried to cut pump heat transfer to overcome fuel vaporising.

 

That spacer would alter the pump drive arm/cam lobe ratio, but it seems to have run OK in the past.

 

Check your fuel hasn't evaporated out of the tank. Add if necessary.

 

Suggest disconnecting the fuel line at the front carby (safely) and see if the lever is pumping up any fuel. If it's getting fuel, check that the choke is fully working, or it won't start.

 

If it's not getting any fuel, disconnect the incoming fuel line to the pump. Attach some hose and blow back down the pipe. Could be a fuel blockage at the tank end.

 

Disconnect a spark plug lead and with the engine cranking over, see if there's a spark jumping to earth. Hold it with insulated pliers or similar.

 

Once the fuel supply and ignition spark are proven, next pull the front aircleaner and try a can of Aerostart.

 

Regards,

 

Viv.

[BrianC]

Whilst investigating my fuel pump leak (see http://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=25883&st=0&p=186440&hl="fuel%20pump"&fromsearch=1&&do=findComment&comment=186440), I sometimes had problems getting fuel to flow when the fuel leval in the tank was low. This, despite clean fuel lines, filters, etc., and fuel seemed to flow after disconnecting and reconnecting the outlet pipe - no logic as far as I could tell.

 

However, since having the pump rebuilt (see http://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=26251&st=0&p=189816&hl="fuel%20pump"&fromsearch=1&&do=findComment&comment=189816), I have had no problems, either with fuel flow or leaks!

 

Having had to remove and refit the pump many times during that saga, I found the easiest way to remove and refit the rear nut was with a very short cut-down open-ended spanner. To initially loosen or finally tighten the nut, I attached an extension at right angles to the spanner (simply a length of wood with a hole in to slide over the spanner). Much easier than sockets but be careful not to round off the corners of the nut.

[TomMull]

Now the temperatures have risen a little in the UK, I decided to fire up the TR3A for a short run. The battery had been fully charged and was ready to go. I used the manual fuel primer on the lift pump, got a good cranking speed but no firing, or for that matter, any smell of petrol from the exhaust. Checked all the linkages and they seemed OK, but no sign of a fire. Still puzzled on that, but suspect fuelling/fuel blockage?

While looking at the lift pump, I noticed there was a 5mm (heat insulating?)spacer between the block and the lift pump. Also noticed that there was very little thread engagement on the lift pump mounting studs, so much so that the "P" clip on the oil pressure gauge pipe(which presumably mounts on one of the studs) was abandoned in favour of a nylon "tie wrap" around the flange mounting! Have I got short studs or is an incorrect spacer fitted?

Any help would be appreciated.

Phil.

 

 

Just a guess but I suspect the incorrect pump. There were several similar AC pumps with different arms to accommodate different engines. I'd check the arm length against a known correct pump, remove the spacer and replace he pump as necessary. Tom

[PhilJane]

Just a guess but I suspect the incorrect pump. There were several similar AC pumps with different arms to accommodate different engines. I'd check the arm length against a known correct pump, remove the spacer and replace he pump as necessary. Tom

 

 

Thanks to all for the excellent advice. Fuel is flowing in the pipe from the fuel pump to front carb when operating the manual primer but haven't checked further, just yet. Possibly remove the air filters to see if the chokes are working? Is "stale" fuel a problem after 3 months?

On the fuel pump issue, I have heard that the spacer was used on some pumps to prevent fuel vaporisation and hot start problems. On Tom's point, does anyone know a tip of lever arm to flange dimension for a standard fuel pump?

There are about two threads of engagement currently on the nuts, so look forward to a wrestle with that rear nut. (thanks for the tips on fitting and removal)

[Don Elliott]

While reading all of the above, I agree that it seems that your pump is not from a TR and it has a longer lever arm reaching into the engine - to the cam lobe.

 

Next, open the filler cap in case your vent is blocked.

 

But you may have found the solution to the problem. I also suspect bad fuel. It has been reported that petrol with 10% ethanol added has a life of one month sitting in your fuel tank. You write that it has been there for 3 months.

 

If you buy a jerry can of fresh petrol and place it on the floor outside the wing on the front left side of your TR, near the fuel pump and connect it to the pump with a tight-fitting rubber hose, the pump will suck fresh petrol from the jerry can up to the carb float bowls and if it should start, then the petrol in the tank is bad.

 

If you only have a few liters, add about half a tankful of fresh petrol and this will dilute the bad fuel. Then your next fill-up will be all fresh fuel and you can enjoy your TR all summer long. These cars were meant to be driven to run properly. During the cold winters here (minus 10 degrees C today), I store my 1958 TR3A with about a liter of fuel in the tank for 4 to 5 months, and fill it with fresh fuel in the spring. I store my TR in a heated garage which is totally dry plus I had the interior "slushed" with an epoxy type compound which protects the steel and prevents rusting. It can also seal small leaks too. This way, I don't get any rust in the tank.

 

If you "slush" your tank, make sure that the product you select is not atacked by ethanol. Some of these compounds are such that the ethanol can peel off the lining and this will block the fuel line, the filter strainer bowl and maybe even the pump.

Edited January 19, 2011 by Don Elliott

[PhilJane]

While reading all of the above, I agree that it seems that your pump is not from a TR and it has a longer lever arm reaching into the engine - to the cam lobe.

 

Next, open the filler cap in case your vent is blocked.

 

But you may have found the solution to the problem. I also suspect bad fuel. It has been reported that petrol with 10% ethanol added has a life of one month sitting in your fuel tank. You write that it has been there for 3 months.

 

If you buy a jerry can of fresh petrol and place it on the floor outside the wing on the front left side of your TR, near the fuel pump and connect it to the pump with a tight-fitting rubber hose, the pump will suck fresh petrol from the jerry can up to the carb float bowls and if it should start, then the petrol in the tank is bad.

 

If you only have a few liters, add about half a tankful of fresh petrol and this will dilute the bad fuel. Then your next fill-up will be all fresh fuel and you can enjoy your TR all summer long. These cars were meant to be driven to run properly. During the cold winters here (minus 10 degrees C today), I store my 1958 TR3A with about a liter of fuel in the tank for 4 to 5 months, and fill it with fresh fuel in the spring. I store my TR in a heated garage which is totally dry plus I had the interior "slushed" with an epoxy type compound which protects the steel and prevents rusting. It can also seal small leaks too. This way, I don't get any rust in the tank.

 

If you "slush" your tank, make sure that the product you select is not atacked by ethanol. Some of these compounds are such that the ethanol can peel off the lining and this will block the fuel line, the filter strainer bowl and maybe even the pump.

 

 

Don,

Thanks for your excellent advise, as always. I will try the test of running on fresh fuel and see if that gets the engine running. If the volatile fractions have evaporated, that could explain why I didn't get a lot of fuel vapour smells in the garage after persistent cranking.

On the fuel pump issue, do you have any recommendations to establish whether I have a TR fuel pump here, either external identifying features,part numbers or dimensional checks?

thanks,Phil.

[TomMull]

Thanks to all for the excellent advice. Fuel is flowing in the pipe from the fuel pump to front carb when operating the manual primer but haven't checked further, just yet. Possibly remove the air filters to see if the chokes are working? Is "stale" fuel a problem after 3 months?

On the fuel pump issue, I have heard that the spacer was used on some pumps to prevent fuel vaporisation and hot start problems. On Tom's point, does anyone know a tip of lever arm to flange dimension for a standard fuel pump?

There are about two threads of engagement currently on the nuts, so look forward to a wrestle with that rear nut. (thanks for the tips on fitting and removal)

 

 

 

I've sent you a PM. Tom

[Don Elliott]

I can't say that the petrol sitting in your fuel tank has lost its volatile components. What may have happened is that ethanol absorbs water from the ambient air (via the fill cap and/or vent pipe) and the water absorbed in the petrol prevents ignition. This water can also cause the inside of your fuel tank to get rusty. I know that for 50 years or more, people have advised that you should park your car for extended periods with the tank full. This will just absorb more water and the rust will happen more quickly than if you left it empty - or almost empty.

Edited January 19, 2011 by Don Elliott

[johnny250]

I don't agree about the fuel going off...I had not run my 250 since Spa last year and it started up straight away with the fuel in the tank/carbs last week. I don't know anything about the early cars but assume you have SU carb/s..in which case just drop the float chamber/s to see what's in there.... check that the petrol is being pumped (float/needle valve OK?) refresh with new fuel if you wish.... then see what happens...... if that doesn't do it then it's likely to be no sparks

 

john

Edited January 19, 2011 by johnny250

[PhilJane]

Hi John,

Thanks for the good advise , it all makes sense. Like yourself, I have been very sceptical about the "sensitivity" of the fuel. We think of petrol as being fairly robust stuff. Last summer I could not get my Briggs and Stratton petrol engined lawnmover to start after a winter shutdown( is there a pattern here?) and after stripping down the carb and finding no problems, I resorted to changing the fuel as many websites had advised. Hey presto it started immediately, so now...... I consider all potential root causes!

Phil.

[whiteone]

In addition to the decay due to storage time it sounds as if the fuel in your tank may be Summer grade which will also affect the starting performance.

I find the best way to start my TR during the winter (which I do very infrequently anyway) is hand prime the fuel pump and use BRADEX easy start sprayed into each air cleaner.

This method is required even if I start the engine on consecutive days at temperatures of about 15 deg. centigrade or below. I have also found that it is impossible to achieve full travel of the choke levers using the choke cable knob.

I still cannot understand why when I used a TR3 as my sole means of transport from 1961 to 1963 I never had any starting problems. Fuel ???

[Guest colinTR2]

Phil

Is "stale" fuel a problem after 3 months?

You will get yeses and nos to this question. For sure I get a problem on my bog-standard TR2. After 3 months it will take a lot of winding to get it to fire, then it coughs and splutters, runs on 3 etc, until I put some fresh stuff in, and within a couple of miles all is fine with all 4 pots working. I always these days jump it off our diesel Peugeot, this gives good volts and also gives the TR battery a "leg-up", it could probably do with replacing about now.

After 20 years this scenario is unchanged, it's always behaved this way.

best of luck

Colin

[Paul Down]

All good advice above.

 

Faulty Fuel pumps can sometimes appear to work OK i.e. will pump fuel into a container when the carb feed is disconnected but can still cause problems if the pressure is not adequate. When in doubt I have a spare electric solid state Facet pump that I connect up to bypass the mechanical pump and prove it OK or not.

 

Old petrol certainly upsets my 3A and as mentioned above summer and winter fuel have different mixtures to make up for lower winter temperatures. If your old fuel is summer grade this will accentuate the problem.

 

Modern cars with ECU's and injection seem to be unnaffected but certain older engines certainly play up until the old fuel has worked through the system.

 

If the 3A has been dormant for a few weeks, especially in cold weather it can take a lot of cranking to start, even after priming the carbs. I use a mains starter/charger (one of my better buys) to help the battery on its way.

 

Sometimes just disconnecting the petrol feed to the carbs( with the HT disabled) and cranking the engine to collect the fuel in a container can solve the problem, put this down to an air lock in the pipework. Or has been suggested debris from the tank blocking the tank supply feed.

 

Finally dont forget that batteries have a much reduced output when the temperature drops.

Best of luck!

Edited January 20, 2011 by Paul Down