TorontoTim Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 All, Just another quick update from this (far) side of the Atlantic... Saturday saw the 7th round, of 9, of the Ontario Road Rally Cup - a couple of hours east of Toronto. As usual, the rally is basically set to regularity-type rules with secret checks, timed to the second (scored to the tenth of a minute), with all navigation effectively plot-and-bash as you get instructions for the whole rally 2 minutes before the start. The first half had very tricky navigation (my navigator was NOT having a good time...), but the second half opened up to easier navigation but some very challenging roads. The two best sections wer, first, about 5 km of loose surface, twisty, bumpy forst road with an average speed of 63km/h (around 40mph) - where we dropped 20 seconds - and, second, about 6 km of recently re-surfaced gravel road, still twisty but smoother and a bit more open at an average speed of 74km/h (just over 45mph) where we lost NO time. Our main competition in a fairly modern tricked-out Mazda had the opposite results to us - not sure what that says about the TR...or my driving... Anyway, once again the combination of great old sportscar (the TR4 is now 49 years old) and smart navigator got us a win - our second of the year. We still lead the championship but with two rounds to go and with each competitor only having to count 6 scores from the 9 rounds, it's nowhere near over yet. Next round is in two weeks - in our main competitors' back yard near Ottawa. Simple navigation, and lots of (very) fast gravel roads. Should be a good challenge in the TR!! We're still the only non-modern car out there. I must do more evangelising to classic car owners... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dazzer Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 (edited) Well done that man! Sounds like a super event and I bet your'e still on a high from the win. great result look forward to more reports. Cheers Darren Edited October 26, 2010 by Dazzer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 Excellent well done Tim. Good to see the TR still holding its end up after all these years. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 628 Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 Congratulations on another first class result, Tim. Those average speeds would be difficult to maintain on an ordinary tarmac country lane in the UK, let alone on twisty gravel tracks, it must be great fun driving them in the TR. Do keep us informed of your progress on the final rounds, we are all behind you to win the Championship! Good Luck Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TorontoTim Posted October 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 One useful thing that I recently changed was to drive my Brantz Tripmeter from a wheel sensor rather than the speedo cable. I can't remember whether that's legal for Historics in the UK, but obviously it is for "modern" rallying here. Anyway, I can now spin the rear wheels with abandon without being scolded by my navigator!! Makes it a lot more fun AND easier on the loose stuff. Thanks for the support, guys. I would LOVE to beat all the moderns for the championship in a TR - as I always say: don't confuse "old" with "slow" ;-) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 628 Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Agreed, Tim! I don't understand why people use the speedo drive, if it breaks you lose the main speedo and trip, plus your tripmeter, all at once! Just ask Dazzer... I can understand it if you have a period Halda which is mechanical, but with electronic units it makes sense to use the sensors, all modern rally cars do. My TR has a Terratrip which can switch instantly between two different sensor inputs. I have a sensor on the propshaft front UJ; the sensor itself is mounted on the gearbox tailshaft on a sturdy home-made bracket and it 'reads' a small steel tag I fixed onto one of the UJ bolts. I'm going to fit another reading the front wheel brake disk bolts, so if a stone rips that off I can immediately switch to the prop sensor. Just to be silly, the car came fitted with a Brantz RetroTrip reading off the speedo cable as well! We don't need super accuracy on stages as it just gets us through the non-competitive road sections where wheelspin shouldn't be an issue!! I'm fitting a Terratrip with the same two sensors to my new road rally car though. Like you, this year I've found running an historic car amongst moderns is hard work but hugely satisfying. Especially in the car park when the crowd's all round your TR and the modern are being ignored!! Nigel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted October 30, 2010 Report Share Posted October 30, 2010 Your drive to the tripmeter is very sensible. In earlier days (46 years ago, for the 1964 Shell 4000 rally in Canada!), 3VC had its tripmeter drive taken via cable (of course!) from the dust cap on the front left wheel, through the stub axle to the Halda on the righthand side of the dashboard. This arrangement was still in place (along with some other special mods not seen when the VC cars were rallied in Europe in 1962/3) when the car returned to England in the mid-1990s. Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tr4Tony Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 Hi I run both a speedo cable sensor and a wheel sensor on BST82B and I have to say the wheel sensor is the most reliable. Im just about to change back to a Halda Twinmaster for the Rally of The Tests in two weeks (where you must run a mechanical tripmeter) .... and as soon as we are done ill be back to the Brantz. Ive tried a hubcap dead wheel drive with the Twinmaster and they work too (as per 3VC) but they are a bit fragile and drilling the stubaxle finely enough for a square cable insert isnt an easy home job! One thing to note is that pre 2004 Brantz trips DO NOT work with the currently supplied wheel sensor .... the sensor measures the change in voltage as the hub rotates and picks up the bolthead ..... the later meters look for a change 5v to 8v, the earlier I think 2v to 5v voltage. I presume running the higher voltage makes the meter operation more reliable, so worth bearing mind if you pick up a used meter. The easiest way to tell is that the later Brantz models have a tab on the casing where the meter can be attached directly to a flat surface, the older meters are such that you need to attach the inside of the case from within. Regards Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted November 3, 2010 Report Share Posted November 3, 2010 Ian - I had my Halda Speedpilot and the Tripmaster driven by a cable secured to the grease-dust cap from the front wheel on the RHS of my TR3A. But it stuck out from the wheel and around back under the front wing. I had to be careful not to snag the "bowed cable" on a branch etc. on the RHS. Here's a photo of my 1958 TR3A after Le Rallye de l'Echo in 1963 and how it looks now. Can't say I noticed the speedo cable drive on the Rally Works TR4s in 1964 but they were very noticable for their mag wheels. At the start in Vancouver, all who saw the TR4s said that these alloy wheels would never withstand the first night's run through the Cascade Mountans. Boy were they wrong. Don Elliott, Original Owner, 1958 TR3A Navigator - 1964 Shell 4000 Rally - Renault R8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tr4Tony Posted November 4, 2010 Report Share Posted November 4, 2010 They certainly were wrong... and all three 3VC, 5VC (the real one) and 6VC still have their original magnesium wheels after all this time ... albeit with a few well photographed scrapes and bashes along the way. I used a set of original mags on BST a few weeks ago at Throckmorton (the old Vulcan bomber base) and they certainly stand up to both high speed cornering and mixed surface use. Regards Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted November 4, 2010 Report Share Posted November 4, 2010 Don, I seem to recall that there was a Mini which had the Halda/Speedo drive taken externally from the left rear wheel (these are front wheel drive cars, of course) - somewhat vulnerable, as the mechanism can be ripped away if the driver gets too closed to a wall/fence/bank! I can't find the photo at the moment. I believe that Karl Wetherall is racing his very quick TR4, which is a Powder Blue, Works Rally replica, on these 1960s American alloy wheels. So that's three quick TR4s using these old wheels "in anger" some 50 years down the line - can't be bad! Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted November 4, 2010 Report Share Posted November 4, 2010 It was one of the Works TR4s on the 4th day, if I remember correctly, driving in a speed section on this gravel road somewhere and the road surface took a rapid rise to a steel bed bridge floor. As the front wheel of the TR4 hit the front corner of the steel floored edge of the bridge, the tyre blew out. But they continued onward to the end of the speed section with a puncture in that tyre. After that speed section, they had time to change to the spare tyre/wheel and carried on to the end of that day's run. The cars were allowed something like 15 minutes or an hour before they were locked away in the park fermé for the night. During that time the team managed to rip off the remnants of the punctured and battered tyre and they put a new tyre on that same rim. They swopped back to that rim which had hit the edge of the bridge steel flooring and, as per the story, they finished on that wheel two days later. If you're interested, you can check a lot of the Shell 400 data on the web-site. Several years are detailed but 1964 is quite complete because, like all sons of a true Sctsman, I save everything of importance. http://shell-4000-rally.org/ Tap on History Page - then down to 1964. You might even see me in the photo gallery Image 130-02.jpg in Ontario. But we finished ! http://shell-4000-rally.org/4000_web/1964/pdf/1964_TSOA.pdf Mentions the puncture on the 4th day. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TorontoTim Posted November 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2010 Here's a photo of the works(?) Mini and Halda drive - driven by Paddy Hopkirk in 1968... http://www.shell-4000-rally.org/4000_web/1968/1968image/pages/1968_119-02.htm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted November 4, 2010 Report Share Posted November 4, 2010 Here's Don . . . . http://shell-4000-rally.org/4000_web/1964/1964image/pages/1964_130-02.htm Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Don Elliott Posted November 5, 2010 Report Share Posted November 5, 2010 Alec - Why did you show that photo ? I look so disheveled there trying to get the wing from rubbing on the tyre. I have to add that I lost about 30 pounds of weight during those 6 days. I now feel a little for the chaps ywho endured the battlefield conditions during 1914 to 1918 or 1939 to 1945. The main thing is we finished ! BTW the works TR4s had 1991 cc engines for the "under 2 liter" class whereas Barry Martin, a private entry from Montreal had the usual 2138 cc engine so he was competing with the hopped up Ford Falcons with the V-8 engines, the Valiant V-8s etc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ianc Posted November 5, 2010 Report Share Posted November 5, 2010 I knew I wasn't dreaming of that Mini with its speedo drive - thank you! Shell 4000: it's true that the three TR4s were entered in the 2-litre class, but Graham Robson tells me that they left the UK as 2,138 cc cars, as they had been from the 1962 Alpine onwards (they were 1,991 only for the 1962 Tulip). Graham says that the Americans did no more than remove the steel wheels and fit the American alloys. So,who entered them as 2-litre cars? Not Graham, and he cannot say that it was Kastner because Graham doesn't know and the whole exercise was very much a publicity-driven entry, so could have been a sales department person. The damage to CAG409 (6VC), when it hit the bridge, was described by the driver, Gordon Jennings, in his article in the July '64Car & Driver. Although repairs were effected after the Rally, the evidence was still there when Neil revington brought the car back to the UK in the mid-90s. Ian Cornish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alec Pringle Posted November 5, 2010 Report Share Posted November 5, 2010 Hi Don, I put up the link because it's one heck of a good period photo ! You've every right to look disheveled, it would be more worrying if you weren't - because then you wouldn't have been trying hard enough . . . . The Renault looks a damn sight worse than you do, and it's bound to raise a smile seeing some frustrated owner beating hell out of a Frogmobile with a big hammer. I had an R8 briefly once, very comfortable but a nasty habit of steering from the rear and seeking to kiss the scenery as a result. The armchair didn't make up for the slippery tail. Cheers, Alec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
angelfj Posted November 5, 2010 Report Share Posted November 5, 2010 Hi Don, I put up the link because it's one heck of a good period photo ! You've every right to look disheveled, it would be more worrying if you weren't - because then you wouldn't have been trying hard enough . . . . The Renault looks a damn sight worse than you do, and it's bound to raise a smile seeing some frustrated owner beating hell out of a Frogmobile with a big hammer. I had an R8 briefly once, very comfortable but a nasty habit of steering from the rear and seeking to kiss the scenery as a result. The armchair didn't make up for the slippery tail. Cheers, Alec Tried to snag it but the link keeps timing out! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
angelfj Posted November 5, 2010 Report Share Posted November 5, 2010 All, Just another quick update from this (far) side of the Atlantic... Saturday saw the 7th round, of 9, of the Ontario Road Rally Cup - a couple of hours east of Toronto. As usual, the rally is basically set to regularity-type rules with secret checks, timed to the second (scored to the tenth of a minute), with all navigation effectively plot-and-bash as you get instructions for the whole rally 2 minutes before the start. The first half had very tricky navigation (my navigator was NOT having a good time...), but the second half opened up to easier navigation but some very challenging roads. The two best sections wer, first, about 5 km of loose surface, twisty, bumpy forst road with an average speed of 63km/h (around 40mph) - where we dropped 20 seconds - and, second, about 6 km of recently re-surfaced gravel road, still twisty but smoother and a bit more open at an average speed of 74km/h (just over 45mph) where we lost NO time. Our main competition in a fairly modern tricked-out Mazda had the opposite results to us - not sure what that says about the TR...or my driving... Anyway, once again the combination of great old sportscar (the TR4 is now 49 years old) and smart navigator got us a win - our second of the year. We still lead the championship but with two rounds to go and with each competitor only having to count 6 scores from the 9 rounds, it's nowhere near over yet. Next round is in two weeks - in our main competitors' back yard near Ottawa. Simple navigation, and lots of (very) fast gravel roads. Should be a good challenge in the TR!! We're still the only non-modern car out there. I must do more evangelising to classic car owners... Tim: have really enjoyed this story. Can you tell (of course without revealing any trade secrets) us how your TR4 has been prepared to be competitive in these events? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TorontoTim Posted November 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 (edited) Hi Frank, Thanks for the encouragement!! To be honest, as these rallies are primarily about navigation and accuracy of timing, by far the most important element in terms of competitiveness is teamwork in the car and having a good navigator (and not having the driver, me, ask too many annoying questions when he's trying to work out the route). Having said that, most of the rallies have at least one section where the average speed is tough to keep up - twisty, gravel roads with averages around 40+ mph where, although the speed limit may be 70 or 80 km/h, there's no way you would drive that quickly under normal circumstances. Obviously, these sections must be easier for the Subarus but the TR is truly remarkable in the way it can handle them. All the more so because I haven't really done much to it. The engine is (as far as I know) pretty much stock. I have an extractor exhaust header/manifold (stainles - bought from a batch made by a forum member) and 2" exhaust but that's just about it on making it faster. Initially I had some overheating problems but I flushed the block out, upgraded the water pump, put in the propoer type of thermostat and added an electric fan. At the same time, I did an alternator/negative earth conversion to help with extra lights, fan and so on - plus a thin-belt conversion to make belt changes easier and to remove the mechanical fan (stop the fan going through the radiator on, er, "sudden" stops too ;-)) Brakes are standard except for premium ceramic pads - never had any fade whatsoever. Suspension mods CERTAINLY help handling - I know, because I was running it stock for a while which was.....entertaining! Even there, though, I don't have much: uprated front springs (no ride-height change) and adjustable Spax shocks - wound up a lttle, but not too hard; standard rear springs but some of those rare double-valve rear dampers (from TR4Tony) - truly excellent! My TR4 is one of the early models with 0-degree castor, quick steering rack as standard (vertical, solid mounts) and I'm running wire/spoke wheels with 165/80 tyres - Vredestein Snow+ for gravel. Overall, if you ask me, TR's are just well-designed sports cars with the emphasis on SPORT. They really do handle well right out of the box and are immense fun. For stage/performance rallying, they probably need quite a lot of work (as Nigel has done). Even for serious Historic Rally in the UK I suspect they benefit from more than I've done if you want to be competitive (as per TR4Tony et al). However, over here you can have a lot of fun and run right up there with the moderns with very little modification. Get out there and try it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://s751.photobucket.com/albums/xx157/umbradog/?action=view¤t=AfterOpenRoad2010.jpg Edited November 7, 2010 by TorontoTim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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